Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We are living in interesting times, perhaps revolutionary times. The Arab Spring, Occupy Wall Street, the scheduled October 15th global protests. Is it possible that we, the people, are waking up from our long hibernation? Are we really saying enough is enough, collectively? I like to believe that. It gives me hope as I analyze statistics like 46% of our tax dollars here in Brazil going to pay interest on bank loans.
When this developing country's infrastructure needs are so urgent. So I resonate with the fight of the 99% against the 1%, the powerful statistic from Michael Moore's documentary critique of capitalism. But I also remain cautiously wary because we have ample experience of how the naivety of popular protests can lead to an illusion of change while the power remains untouched. This is perhaps most urgent here.
We need a clear vision of what's gone wrong at the root if we're to fix it. I'd like to offer something in that spirit today. Science for Revolutionaries, today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
Join us in our work of conscientizing humanity about what's really going on. Conscientizing, a new term from Norberto Keppe's International Society of Analytical Trilogy to mean making people conscious.
Consciousness is important because in Keppe's psychological view we are not naturally unconscious at all. We are, by nature, conscious of reality. Our problem lies in the psychological condition whereby we deny consciousness, personally and collectively. We push away consciousness of things individually through numerous techniques that cause us to avoid seeing what is often obvious to others. Like the woman who's attracted to a bad mate while everyone else shakes their heads.
Collectively, we push consciousness aside through a corporate-controlled media that hides or obscures or ignores what's really going on. In that light, I was talking to a Brazilian friend over breakfast this morning who was asking me for the latest on Occupy Wall Street. I told him I hadn't checked into the website over the weekend, and he said he'd been searching a little on the BBC site and found no updates at all.
Nothing even on the global protest being organized on October 15th, which he found interesting and strange. So our media, supposed to be the informer of the public, is pathologically derelict in its duty. So we're not getting the consciousness we need. That's not a complete excuse, of course, because we can find out a lot if we want. But if we want to stay asleep, we can do that too.
Just like the woman heading into a tragic relationship when it's obvious to everyone except her. So she doesn't want to see. This is one of Dr. Keppe's psychological premises that can serve us so well in these transformative times, that we reject consciousness that we don't want to see. It appears at the moment anyway that we're waking up a little from that stupor.
Keppe's psychosociological science gives us other tools as well to understand how we got into the mess we find ourselves in. For instance, that this current economic crisis that's serving as a lightning rod for all the outrage is not a current crisis at all. It's a culmination of a lot of nefarious work behind the scenes to cause stock market crashes and sponsor war and deregulate financial industries and sneak through central bank structures that actually belong to private families.
And in Keppe's view, this is all in place because we haven't understood human inversion and lust for power. So we've dismissed the warning signs because we haven't wanted to see these bad intentions in ourselves. Like in our selfishness, our disregard for others, or in the powerful who arrange it so we ask them to do the dirty things they already want to do.
Like take away rights and bail out a corrupt financial system. Oh, it's a tangled web, isn't it? Let's explore it all. Gilbert Gambucci, my colleague here and an expert on the link between Keppe's work and the American founding fathers, joins me soon for an intensive and explosive look at the pathology of power and our pact with it. But first, Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco on why we've been so intent on staying asleep in the face of such obvious evil doings.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: Young people, they used to be very much ethical. They could not accept Vietnam War, for instance, killing people for money. They were like, what is this, killing people for money? This is not our war. What are we doing there, suffering so much and killing our young soldiers and killing innocent people in other countries? So they did not accept that. They suffered from that injustice.
Richard: Boy, we could look at the history of that, Cláudia, because now we've had two wars, well, more than that, since the Vietnam War, and nobody's protesting this anymore.
Cláudia: On the opposite, on the opposite. That many people are saying, why are we not entering another war? So they understand that they must regain, between quotes, the economic balance through wars and using military apparatus and all that.
And then giving loans to these peoples, these countries that are destroyed by war so they will reconstruct their countries. And they have tremendous, tremendous profits out of the war, out of drugs, out of killing people. So this is the market of death. And no country can survive under this policy. And this has been the policy of the United States in the last how many years?
Richard: 50 years anyway.
Cláudia: 50 years or so. So how come American people can be happy in this kind of spirit, this kind of vibration or lack of vibration? Because this is death all around the country in their minds, terror, terror, terrorists and all these laws to prohibit this, prohibit that. So now the prohibitions in the United States are much, much bigger than in the 60s.
60s, like forbidden to do anything, to think, to do, to move, to whatever. You are only allowed to have your credit card, to spend money, to owe money for the banks and for the government and to consume drugs. So we are not speaking about square-minded people. We are speaking about truly smart group of millionaires, smart, smart millionaires controlling the whole world for their own purposes.
Richard: Can we talk about the process of how they did that, Cláudia? Is there like a line we can follow, some things that they did specifically to...
Cláudia: I understand that this is a
Richard: long-term kind of process. And they planned, they took control of many aspects, many
Cláudia: fields. They took over all the fields possible. Media, pharmaceutical companies are one of the biggest controllers also of the health.
This medical industry, health industry, banking system, the Senate is controlled by economic powerful, so politicians have no voice anymore to speak. They are controlled, totally controlled, and all of them have their hidden agenda, or they have like dossiers of each person. So, you know, everybody has his own hidden mistakes or hidden or private life, and they use this. They control, they survey, and they invade the privacy and intimacy of politicians so they can have them in their hand.
So that's how they do. And they corrupt them also. So it's a pity that politicians lost their voice and their power. Now they are puppets as well. So this is a long-term thing. And I suggest people who would like to be interested in reading more and knowing more, reading Liberation of the People, Pathology of Power by Norberto Keppe.
Richard: This book opened my eyes, Cláudia, in a way that I can't even explain.
It's an extraordinarily powerful impact on me, this book.
Cláudia: The difficulties we have now, Jones, from that time when Keppe wrote the book, was that less people were, like, numbed as they are now. So they read this, they read the book, and what is lacking is this feeling, as I said.
"It's this essential feeling that human beings are being
Richard: like mutated,
Cláudia: mutated genetically, genetically mutated by, by this consumption of drugs. And
we're not only talking illegal drugs, we're talking prescription drugs as well. Because the number of people that are taking something,
Cláudia: I mean, there's a doctor here who said the average American takes seven prescription medications. Seven. And when I took a little, the average one aspirin
changes our vibration of our DNA.
Imagine one aspirin. I, I gotta tell you, I've been in some homes of some older people, they literally have a container filled, piled high with medication, one for the husband, one for the wife. And when I did a little informal survey of my friends who are middle-aged people, that was correct, at least seven medications. The Middle East
Cláudia: people, like Iraqi, Iranian, Afghanistan, even from Chinese people, they don't trade drugs as much as we in the Western world take."
So they are much more alive, much smarter, and they have feelings and they have ethics. So if something touches their heart, they give their lives in order to save some principle that they have. Now, we in the Western world are all corrupt, so we don't react anymore. Because now people are all numbed and all dead and all corrupt, so the problem came from within.
The danger is not in the Middle East, the danger comes from within. And I'm not sure whether people will have conditions and, and time and to react, but we do what we can to, to open their eyes, and we risk our lives by doing so, but we still do so. I think that if people would start waking up and working with their inner lives, with their inner selves, which is the most precious, the most precious thing, the only thing we have, only thing we will not take, the, the dollar bills or gold or, or a house or a car or anything with us, we are not taking this, this doesn't belong to us.
What we have, which is more precious, the only thing, it's our soul, our life, our eternal life. And this is the big difference between westerners and eastern people, they are much more spiritual, they are much stronger.
Richard: Keppe talks somewhere, I think Universal Man, he talks about how the universals are God's concepts implanted inside the human being, these universal ideas that we were fighting for in the 60s.
And not only then, I mean, the French Revolution, the American Revolution, the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights, all of these are documents that are related to those values of a just society, a fair society, one where everybody's equal, where everybody has an opportunity. This is something that's deep inside all of us. In
Cláudia: the First World War and in the Second World War, Western soldiers still went to give their lives to fight for freedom and democracy, I'm sure.
Richard: My father went for that
Cláudia: reason. Even if they were deceived by the powerful at that time already, even if they were already being deceived, not only the North Americans, French and English, but also the Germans were deceived by their powerful, by Hitler, who brought behind him obscure reasons to involve Germany in the war. So we see all those soldiers giving their lives for ideals, highly brought ideals from the past and from spiritual ideals and their families.
So they were really fighters. Freedom
Richard: in society, Cláudia.
Cláudia: They were giving their lives. So they fought so bravely when they needed. After the second world war people started to realize, oh, we are being deceived, we are giving our lives for what purpose, so we are wasting our lives for what purpose. So they felt this was something that hurt them, hurt their, hurt them, their families, their lives, they lost everything they had for what purpose.
So they started questioning, what is this. So as soon as the powerful peoples realized peoples were not as foolish as before, they were waking up, they found a way to trick them, like to, to use this technique. They started printing bills, dollars, dollars, giving them dollars to buy drugs and to drug themselves and to drink and to take pharmaceutical pills and to be like hooked in interest
Richard: rates, borrowing
Cláudia: money for loans and mortgages, being hooked on installments.
They printed bills in order to enslave even more. They are so smart. They're so smart. And I think, my God, now we are seeing people that are not. Everybody got sick. Everybody got sick. It's like talking to a person who is drunk. You cannot talk to a drunk. They don't respond, as well as a lucid person. So now people are not only drunk, but they are doped.
So how can we talk to people? They will not respond anymore. So those who are still a little bit lucid should wake up and start getting united. Please people, don't, don't let this handful of evil people destroy the whole planet. Important
Richard: words from an important idealist. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head returns in a moment on the Conscious Planet Radio Network with Gilbert Gambucci in our discussion about the pathology of power.
Don't go away. The program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, we're coming to you on the Conscious Planet Radio Network. I was saying that name to Dr. Cláudia Pacheco last week and she said, well, that's a great name for a network. And I think it is too. We're starting here now, this is a new network starting up and we're very happy to be streaming our shows there.
We have a special little section there about Liberation of the People, which relates very directly to what we're going to talk to Gilbert Gambucci about in just a moment.
We also have posted the video that was made down here about the arrest and imprisonment of Drs. Keppe and Pacheco in New York in the 80s for trumped-up spurious charges, a real example of ideological persecution there. And that video is on the website as well, along with some information about a campaign that we're embarking on for 2012. We're getting pretty close to what some people say is the end of this current situation, economic, political, social situation that we're in.
Everybody's sort of leading or looking towards 2012. So I think this may be some interesting information for you.
I mentioned Liberation of the People and Gilbert Gambucci has is joining me now. And Gilbert, this Liberation of the People was kind of a bomb when it was launched in the United States in about 1985.
You were there, can you sort of give us an overview of what it was like, what you guys were doing with the launch of this book, what it represented, what was the initiative that you began there as a result of Dr. Keppe's work?
Gilbert Gambucci: It was a work that Keppe was doing at that time. He began to perceive beyond the social pathology, beyond the hindrances that we have in our lives that are social.
He was seeing that there are powerful people, specifically economically powerful people, who are really perturbing the society and creating a social pathology beyond what is, let's say, like a common to have, you know, normal to have. And so this book that you're referring to, Liberation of the People, it's historical in the sense that it's the first and only book that analyzes the pathology of power, people in power.
Even though we've had on our planet people, obvious people like Hitler and Stalin and very crazy people who have caused us a lot of problems, but there are many more very disturbed people in positions of power, especially economic power, people who act behind the scenes. And, Rich, people are not perceiving that they are mentally disturbed individuals. And as you were mentioning, we were talking a little bit earlier, you were mentioning also how terribly anti-American they are as well.
Richard: You know, Gilbert, there's one of the chapters in this book, Liberation of the People, and I'll come back to this comment we made about anti-American, but let me just focus on this first because it alludes to what you're talking about. There's a chapter in this book, Liberation of the People, which I love, called The Sociology of Power. Just to give you an idea, the chapters in this book, The Sociology of Power, The Psychopathology of Power, The Media in Power, A Profile of the Powerful, these are all extracts from this book.
It's a phenomenal treatise, intellectual, psychological exploration of the pathology of power. This chapter, The Sociology of Power, I selected this one today, Gilbert, because it opens like this. And listen, this is exactly sort of summarizes what you're talking about. The purpose of my book, Dr. Keppe says, the purpose of my book is to make people conscious of the fact that they are dominated by individuals who are sick, paranoid, cowardly, and corrupt.
Now, how's that for an explosive intro? Isn't that incredible?
Gilbert: You know, Rich, I remember when Dr. Keppe launched the book there in New York, and the reaction of people in general was... We're a little bit shocked. You know, the eyes open, but it's true. It's all the truth. So it can all be verified. And it was just like a wave of consciousness that started going out that was very interesting to observe.
And
Richard: when you were speaking in Pennsylvania recently for about 800 people in a consciousness concert there, you said that there was quite a bit of appreciation of this aspect of Dr. Keppe's work in looking at the people in power as being sick and paranoid and really mentally ill people. There was quite a response to that, wasn't there?
Gilbert: Yeah, I have to admit, Rich, I was a little bit surprised because I'm a little bit used to us being attacked as we were in New York, but it's always powerful people who attack us, you know.
And there in Pennsylvania, there were 800 people in attendance, including one of the senators of the state of Pennsylvania. And Rich, everybody was in agreement with what we're talking about today in relation to this book Liberation of the People. Everybody agreed. And so I was just, I was just seeing how people in general, they, they have an idea that those who are in power are against the people.
And so in relation to this event that is happening now on Wall Street, you know, occupying Wall Street, in one way, uh, basically I'm very glad to see it. Finally people are not demonstrating in Washington in front of the White House, finally they, they arrived there at Wall Street in front of the real problem, you know, the bankers, the speculators, these people are causing the problems.
So at least they're in the right place now. But I was just, I was realizing that they're kind of there like almost like begging for justice and for jobs and in front of the very people who are creating the injustices in the world, who are downsizing the civilization, not only jobs, you know, the economic sector, Rich. It's like the consequence of a civilization that is undergoing problems, you know, there, there are, they are downsizing the society, you know, there are much less, um, cultural and social organizations and associations, they're all closing down, you know, and the concertizing venues one by one, things are closing down.
And the last thing to show up, let's say, is the economic sector, you know, there's no more jobs. And so I'm seeing these young people, most of the young people there at Wall Street, there, there are people who they have no place in society. You know, many of them, they have no jobs. They have no affiliations. You know, it's like the society is too small.
It doesn't contain all of us anymore. And what most people are not realizing is that it's been planned this way so that we become better enslaved.
Richard: How have they done that, Gilbert? What's sort of the process of planning this? You've been working with Dr. Keppe on this theme since the early 1980s, 1980s. So you've had a good long time to look at this.
What's been the process where we've been enslaved? How do you see that? Well,
Gilbert: you know, one of the points, Rich, is, for example, these economically powerful, as we call them, they're completely anti-American. People don't realize that, you know. For example, one of the fundaments of our founding fathers that founded our nation, uh, Jefferson for example, he shows that, um, schools and the public media, they have to be free, that is, they cannot be controlled by any interest other than their proposed function, you know, to be a media in order to avoid corruption and in order to avoid the decadence of a nation.
Look how interesting, you know, because the media is the public consciousness. So if that media gets controlled by some other interest, then we don't have consciousness of what's really going on in the society. And as we know, mainstream media, it's completely bought up by the economically powerful. Even cinema. You know, this guy Murdoch, he owns MGM and Warner Brothers. You know, they bought up the cinema and all of the mainstream media in order for us to be like alienated, to not really know what's going on.
And this is a completely anti-american behavior on their part. This I
Richard: think is a very good point. And I think it would be worth mentioning here that there have been a number of of leaders throughout the democratic world who have spoken about this, what's going on behind the scenes. I think in your consciousness concert you probably quoted from Kennedy's great speech where he spoke to the press club about that.
But I know that Jefferson spoke about the be very careful of the bankers. And I know that Disraeli and Gladstone in England back in the 1700s, they spoke very much to about don't be fooled about what's going on in front of you. What's really happening is behind the scenes that we're being manipulated and controlled by these people. That's important to see, isn't it?
Gilbert: Yes, it's a basic consciousness that we need to have. And, you know, I don't know, there at the consciousness concert that I did in Pennsylvania, people, they know that the media lies, but somehow we fall into their way of thinking or how they want us to think. You know, we're still not reacting properly. Another example of how these economically powerful people are completely against, they are against what is American, they're against the founding fathers, the fundaments of our nation, is that one of the concerns, objectives and principles of the founding fathers, especially as explained by Thomas Paine, is that "it's necessary to prevent a dominating class of any type from perpetually remaining in power."
Now of course in their time this where this was the the monarchs, you know, the king, you know, you have the same family there generation after generation and they just become tyrants and they dominate and the situation becomes unbearable. And so they saw this pathology of people with power, they had this awareness and they said you can't have a dominating class there perpetually.
That's why they set up the american uh the by the our constitution uh the political sphere, there's a rotation, you know, you're in office every four years or every eight years and then you're out. There's a you know and at all levels there's a certain rotation going on. Uh it's divided up into three sectors to spread out the power, you know, the judicial executive legislative branch, because they saw where there's an accumulation of power, then forget it.
There's no more liberty. And especially where you have somebody there perpetually or a group of people who are always there generation after generation, you can't have that if you want liberty. Yeah,
Richard: and it's very important to say this. This is not the political people necessarily who are in power in terms of the faces that we see, but there is and has been, at least since Reagan's time, a very strong domination of Wall Street inside the halls of power.
Gilbert: Yeah, exactly. These economically powerful people who are the most powerful on the planet, they dominate the political sector completely. They've infiltrated and dominated for many decades now.
Richard: Yeah, it's an amazing situation. I'm going to take a break in a second, Gilbert, but I just wanted to go into the break with this comment you mentioned about un-American activities of these powerful, how un-American it is.
I was watching an interview with Dick Cheney relatively recently. I don't know if it's a recent interview or if I just saw it recently. I think it's relatively recent, though, where he was sort of asking for an apology from the Obama administration for Obama's criticism of the Bush administration's torture, using torture to extract information in the war against terror. Obama, during his campaign, said this is totally un-American.
And I was struck by Cheney's reaction to that. This is not to say that comparing Obama and Cheney, but Cheney's reaction was like offended by this, offended that he could be called anti-American. So this seems to me that this might be for our activist friends who are there in the Occupy Wall Street protests, this might be a really good nail to keep hitting, you know, because these psychotics who are in power, they seem to have very thin skins about that.
They're very, very sensitive about the fact that what they're doing is un-American. And so the more we can bring consciousness of how un-American they are, the better it will be for all of us. Well, let me take a quick break. We'll come back and I'll get your comments on that because I really want to hear what you have to say about that.
We are on, okay, good. We're on the Conscious Planet Radio Network. Our program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. My personal email, joneshealing at gmail.com. We're coming back with Gilbert Gambucci to talk about Occupy Wall Street, the pathology of power, and much more about the beautiful conclusions and solutions that we have through Dr. Nervar Tokepi's work in Liberation of the People. We're back in just a moment.
Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Conscious Planet Radio Network. And Richard Lloyd Jones here. Gilbert Gambucci is joining me to talk about Liberation of the People, the pathology of power, the Occupy Wall Street. A phenomenal movement that's happening. I'm remembering the 60s again, Gilbert. But I wanted to get your comments about this un-American, sort of this un-American button that we can keep pushing.
Because it seems that there's a real chord that's struck there. If somebody reacts very strongly to being called something, it's because they know that they're being that way and they're reacting in a strong way to cover up their own feelings. So Cheney reacting to being called un-American, to the policies of the Bush administration being called un-American, his strong reaction to that indicates that he's very sensitive about that.
And so this is a psychological rule. What are your comments about that? How can you help us to understand that deeper, Gilbert?
Gilbert: You know, Rich, looking at that from the point of view of trilogical science, Dr. Keppe's science, we see clearly that a very imbalanced individual doesn't want to see the way he really is, you know. And the more imbalanced, the more resistance the person has of seeing the way he really is.
And one of the things that is a part of American civilization since the beginning, at least following this line, the spirit of the founding fathers, John Adams brought this up a lot, that we have to give preferential value to education and to moral responsibility, that is to ethics. We have to act ethically because they were after the pursuit of happiness. And it's an internal question.
You know, if you act ethically, that is, if you work, you know, this altruistic philosophy of life, of helping others, of benefiting society, not extracting from it, but from giving to society with your work, you know, with your service. This was a part of what our civilization was built upon. We say altruistic philosophy of life, you know, they were calling it moral responsibility.
And I remember a very a famous incident in the 70s and 80s and actually it continues until today where Nestle was selling powdered milk to the hospitals for in order to substitute for natural breastfeeding, this formula milk stuff, you know, and in areas where the water was contaminated. What was happening was the babies were suffering from diarrhea and dehydration and were dying in large numbers.
And I remember seeing film clips of senators questioning representatives from this company. And they were saying, well, look, you know that the babies are dying as a result of dehydration from the use of your product, right? And in many cases, the hospitals were forcing this. You know it's linked to the pharmaceutical industry as well and rich their reactions were unbelievable. They would say yes okay and that's their problem but what we're doing is not illegal.
And the senators would say but you have a moral responsibility in this into the you can't do this. And they would answer but we're not doing anything illegal. So you can see a line of people who are very cold-hearted, we come to the question of mental illness, in fact. And where they don't have this line of the founding fathers of acting ethically, of acting morally, they are anti-American, completely.
Richard: And psychopathic. There's a psychopathic personality that says things like that.
Gilbert: As well. Do you perceive the mental illness involved?
Richard: I sure do. I remember the big tobacco executives, the big six or big five tobacco standing up on the major networks back in the 70s, maybe the 80s, and saying, I believe cigarettes are not addictive, you know? I mean, it's kind of the refusal and then creating the Tobacco Institute to prove that or to show that there's no conclusive evidence that cigarettes cause cancer, these kinds of things.
We see this kind of behavior everywhere. This is psychopathic behavior, isn't it, Gilbert? Yeah,
Gilbert: Rich, there's two characteristics to mental illness, two basic ones. Let's say there are two characteristics that most people don't perceive. One is this. There are people who refuse to benefit society. That is to say, they don't work. And they're very clever at getting other people to work for them.
That is, they have to get themselves into a position of dominating others. And this is even observable in mental institutions where we have like people who are obviously mentally ill. Now, there are others who know how to wear a suit and tie. They know how the society functions. They're mentally ill. They're not like drooling mentally ill like in institutions. But they have the same behavior where they don't serve anybody.
In fact, they get themselves into positions of power and then just vent their hatred, their envy of society, their pathology onto others. It's a very sick behavior. And we tend not to perceive them very well because of the second characteristic. And that is the social mask that they have. It's actually a psychological phenomenon that more people need to begin to perceive. Because what happens?
You and I, Rich, when we do something that is wrong, when we do something evil, we have a chance of perceiving it because we do good things as well for others. So we have this like dialectic inside ourselves. We have this comparison. You know, when we do something evil, afterwards you can feel bad about it, you know, or if somebody says something, you realize that was not correct, it was not well.
But there are people who never do anything for anybody. And they don't have this comparison so they don't perceive when they are doing something evil. They think that they are wonderful, they think they're at perfect, and so they really think that they really think that they are marvelous and perfect. They never are mistaken, you know, they can they can cause many people to be murdered and the next day they're just out there in public in the face that is just perfectly normal.
And they think they're like a god, like um um a being that is higher than the net than the human being, because they're mentally disturbed, they don't see anything wrong with themselves.
Richard: Yeah very interesting, there's this um professor of psychopathology and one of the world leading experts up at up in my city in Vancouver at UBC named Robert Hare, who talks about all the psychopaths that there are in everyday society, that there are many of these kinds of personalities. But Gilbert, I want to morph a little bit here because I don't want to make this just about this incredible problem with the pathology of power.
We really need to understand that. And the people who are very earnestly trying to protest the Occupy Wall Street protests, if there are people with a sort of a good intention there, it appears there are some people who are extremely idealistic. The problem doesn't just sit with the powerful. Somehow we've made a pact in some way with them. And I'd really like to start to get into this in the next part of this segment here.
How have we done that? I remember taking a ride with a taxi driver in Minneapolis when I was down there doing some voiceover work. And I remember the young it was just young kid he was driving the airporter, I was going from the the airport to my hotel and he said somewhere along the line we Americans got it in our heads that it was a bad thing to help people.
And this is something I think that's very very strong. Can you talk a little bit about our pact with the powerful, how it relates to what I'm talking about now.
Gilbert: You're absolutely right rich, american people have made a pact with this economically powerful without realizing exactly what we've done, you know. They are as we're seeing they are not only psychotic they're even psychopaths, it's a it's a like another step of of sickness because they have a real hatred for civilization, a real envy and hatred and they're very dangerous.
And um so what happened. And if I can put this in as briefly as possible, in the 70s, the United States was economically in trouble. There were some problems that needed to be solved in the industrial field, agricultural, the workforce. There were problems that needed to be solved. So what did they do? They came up with what we now know nowadays as Reaganomics.
It's actually uh Friedman and his wife that these they were like some kind of Nobel Prize winners for of something and they came up with this idea was we're not Reagan's idea, Reagan agreed with it and they implemented this idea to stimulate the stock market, speculative market, making money with money. They decided that would be their industry, money. And so what happened on an industrial level.
The industries were making more money through money speculation than the products that they ...would manufacture as a company. That's why, for example, the cars, the models were not changing, the materials were getting cheaper, the cars don't last as long, because they're not so interested in that anymore. They make more money on the stock market, you know, just as an example. And this happens throughout all the whole sector, the industrial sector.
So the industries became like less active in the agricultural sector. For example, in 1982 alone, 34,000 farms in the United States were shut down. They were not bought up. They were shut down. They were deactivated. You know, the farmers were given money not to produce for financial reasons because they were manipulating the prices. And what happened was the agricultural sector was shutting down in terms of another level, the workforce, personal level.
Even personal, I know friends who would invest their paychecks in the stock market. And after some time, if you get good at it, making more money on the stock market than at work. And so people then would retire. You know what is that retire, you know, they stay in the stock market. So what happened rich was that the United States was deactivated.
It's difficult to perceive because there's lots of money going around, everybody's making money, you know, speculation money with money, but everybody's stopping, the industrial sector was going down, uh agriculture is almost closed up, you know, we have to buy our food because we don't have any more in the United States, basically, people became deactivated. And so it was a kind of pact that we made with the economically powerful of getting money without working for it.
You know, they had this idea, ah, put some money in the pockets of the Americans, they'll stop working, no problem, because they need to control us better. Because the United States, we were the most active people on the planet. And so that's very difficult to control if you want to control a people. And as we know these people are disturbed and and they just went at it for many years.
How can they put the american civilization down in all sectors, not only economic economic also but in all sectors, how can we deactivate this civilization in
Richard: a way. Then they played to our sort of neurosis, our psychopathology, to use that scientific term. They played to our neurosis by giving us the idea that we could get something for nothing, and we who want something for nothing, we played right into it.
Gilbert: Yes, they kind of tricked us, you know. And it was a very nasty trick, because who doesn't want money for free? You know, anybody would accept the money if you were offered it, you know. But this causes an internal breakdown in psychological life, because being is action primarily, you know? And so people were becoming inactive, and so now we're in a state where we're not active anymore, and you can't bring that back immediately.
That has to be recovered.
Richard: Yes, Gilbert. Another thing that I see has happened is that we North Americans, we've allowed a lot of very dubious policies, the North American Free Trade Agreement, the whole process of globalization, this idea of a new world order, in a way, we've permitted these things to happen because, well, I've got gasoline in my car, and so, you know, I don't have any problems.
Everything's going well for me, so why should I care about that? So our apathy has also contributed to this.
Gilbert: Yes. You know, Rich, you know why many people are not there on Wall Street helping the kids to protest against the situation is because they are still in pact with the situation. With getting money for nothing, basically, in a general way.
Richard: Yeah. No, but let me take another break, Gilbert, and come back.
Keep your thought, because we'll continue on with this talk. I want to keep talking about this pact with the powerful. I have some more thoughts on that, too. We are back in just a moment with Gilbert Gambucci. The pathology of power, our subject today, Liberation of the People, Keppe's incredibly incisive scientific analysis of what it takes to have social transformation. This is a book that activists need to read today.
It's as timely today as when it was written back in the 1980s.
Thinking with Somebody Else's Head returns in just a moment on Conscious Planet Radio. Don't go away. We are back, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on Conscious Planet Radio. I'm bringing you a lot of consciousness today about the pathology of power.
My good friend Gilbert Gambucci, who's been studying with Norberto Keppe on this theme, particularly, many other themes too, but this theme particularly for over 25 years. So he has a wealth of information to let us know about. Dr. Keppe and your group there, Gilbert, when Dr. Keppe was in New York, the group of you who were there from Brazil and America and Europe were involved very strongly in kind of protests, trying to raise consciousness about the decay that was happening in the United States.
At that time, it was just you and your group. Now it's the Americans who are out there. This must be a nice evolution for you to see personally.
Gilbert: Yeah, you know, Rich, at the time, Dr. Keppe had done a mass mailing of this book freely to, let me see if I can remember everybody, all senators, state and federal, all representatives, sheriffs. It was sent to the FBI.
It was sent to local politicians all across the country. And we had launched a campaign because we saw that the situation was very serious. And now we were seeing more exactly what is the problem exactly, you know, who is behind the problem. Because as you said earlier, these economically powerful people, they're cowards. They're very aggressive, but aggressivity is different from courage. They're cowards.
They remain behind the scenes, you know. And if people can find a way to confront them, you'll see that they are cowards. You have to be careful because they're, they're aggressive, they're sick, you know. But we, we were seeing the problem and so the book was being launched. I remember on cable, New York cable television, every week Dr. Keppe did a show about the book and which would be aired four times a week.
And after the first year, the second year, then I began doing that. I was talking about the book, interviewing people about different chapters in the book. And every week, Rich, there would be five to 10 people who would call in ordering the book, which was a sign to us that there were many, many more people taking in the consciousness that we were offering, you know.
If that many people were buying the book each week, just from a New York cable TV, well New York is the financial center of the world, you know. And so it, it was a bomb of consciousness starting in New York and going out through the, through the whole country. And there's something interesting about when what is true, Rich, what is good and what is true and what is beautiful is that it creates an energetic wave that doesn't stop.
It's not like evil, evil, you have to continually be evil because it, as they say in Portuguese, it has short legs, it doesn't go very far, you know. You have to keep it up. But goodness, it's a kind of a wave, an energetic wave that doesn't stop. And so watching some of the younger people occupying Wall Street, some of their comments, I would think to myself, well did they read Liberation of the People?
They have exactly ideas from this book or are they grasping it energetically or what's the story exactly? It's a very interesting phenomenon. Yeah, Dr.
Richard: Keppe was saying to me the other day that he felt that this resonance in a way with his work from the 80s. It's like he feels it's like a resonance with what he and you guys did there in the 1980s and he felt very vindicated in a way for his work, that his work in New York had not been a waste of time at all.
And you're just reflecting that right back now.
Gilbert: You know, on the cover of Liberation of the People, this study of the pathology of power, which I would read this each week on the TV show, because right on the cover it says this. This is the first study of the psychosocial pathology of people with power, psychotics who are impeding human development, and destroying society.
If we don't stop them immediately, we will witness the rapid demise of civilization. You know, this says it all right here on the cover. And the problem is that they were not stopped immediately. This was in the 80s. And so we have suffered more consequences than what people are willing to look at.
Richard: But you know, Gilbert, I just want to bring in another element here that I think is very important to talk about because we are focusing a lot on those people out there.
And this system, these people in power, they need to be called for what they are. They need to be put on the carpet. We need to unmask this part. This is very, very important, I feel, in your work and our work here. But, you know, we've been manipulated. We've made this pact with them because of our projections psychologically. We don't see problems in ourselves, so we can be manipulated to see problems in others.
And this is a fact that I think... Leads us to a lot of the social tension that we see around us today. We see the problems in others, in vaguely defined terror networks, in microbes from outside. And so this projection becomes kind of institutionalized. We don't see in ourselves our individual problems and our society collectively does not see its collective problems. And so people who get to the top, these are the most projective people.
So they stimulate this kind of projective paranoia in us and make a fortune creating products that, quote unquote, alleviate our paranoia. So we have this huge military-industrial complex that they've managed to spend billions and billions and trillions of dollars in because of our paranoia, because we think that we have to deal with everything through a military confrontation. They have justification for war and torture now because the enemy is outside.
There's an enormous pharmaceutical industry that voraciously expands by giving drugs to more and more segments of the population for more and more dubious reasons. So this projection, this unwillingness to see our own psychopathology has created an enormous sociopathology. And this is something in Dr. Keppe's work that's very clearly outlined. Let's talk a little bit about that here in the last segment of our program today, Gilbert.
Gilbert: Yeah, there's a psychological component here, Rich. It's that people, really, they behave like this. If I don't see the problem, it doesn't exist. And, of course, you would say, oh, of course not, you know. But really, we act that way because there's a principle here, Rich, and that is people don't want to see evil. They think that to see evil is to be evil.
But the fact is this. Evil is evil but consciousness of evil is something good because then you can deal with the evil or avoid it. And this is, people don't want to deal with the evil that we have in our society. And the worst evil that we have, as we've been talking about, is this, the people with power. Because if we see it for what it is, then we're going to have to respond and people don't want to wake up.
They don't want to respond. So they don't want to see the evil that's happening, neither in themselves nor in
Richard: others. And so we get this enormous projection into external situations, you know, external peoples, external microbes, bacterias, pigs and birds, and you know, the sort of people who wear masks in foreign countries, anybody who's from a different religion. We get this enormous amount of projection that happens because we think that seeing the problem is wrong.
We don't want to see any problems in ourselves. This is a serious psychological difficulty, isn't it? You know,
Gilbert: Rich, it takes a certain amount of courage to be willing to embrace the sight of a problem, especially a big problem, something evil, both in ourselves and in the society, and to see really how evil these powerful people are. And that component that we have in ourselves, you know.
And because this would bring us to a very principle that is in our souls as Americans and that is this, and the country was founded on this, okay, that is the people there were obliged to rebel against tyrannical laws and against tyrants. The country was founded on that principle, you know. Thomas Pain talks about this a lot. We don't have the right to rebel.
We're obliged to rebel against these laws that are against the happiness of our lives, against these tyrants, these modern-day tyrants, you know. That is, if you want liberty, you know, we have to rebel. That is, you know, if you're American. So
Richard: it's American to protest in a way, isn't it, Gilbert?
Gilbert: It's in our psyche. You know, we say psychogenetic. It's psychogenetic. And it's like, it's a kind of a sin, if I could use that word, to deny that, you know, because the greatness of our country, the freedom that we did experience was based on this.
And so land of the free, we're not so much anymore. We're enslaved. And what about the home of the brave? Where are these people? You know, I see a lot of middle-aged and a little bit older people who are not helping these young people there on Wall Street, you know. And it's exactly these people who have conditions to come out of the house, you know, take the bull by the horn and do what needs to be done because then we'll be able to pick ourselves up and accomplish something here on this earth of value.
Richard: Yeah. One of the psychological laws that Dr. Keppe talks about is that paranoia is a result. When we don't want to see the problems inside us, inside our society, the stronger our censorship is to those problems, the greater will our paranoia be. And our paranoia is at such a level now that they are using that paranoia to take away rights. So you go to airports now and you can be groped or have to go through dangerous x-ray machines because they're instituting this kind of thing thinking, one, we have the paranoia of the powerful against the people.
So the people are dangerous, so we have to make it more and more difficult for them to travel because they're the real danger. We have to put cameras on every block of every major city in the world. We have to constantly watch people flag their e-mails, all this kind of paranoia. But we're responsible for the same thing, Gilbert, because our paranoia has gotten to a level because we don't want to see our problems, the problems in our society.
Our paranoia is at such a level that we let them take away this kind of thing. And then when the whole system collapses, we let them use our $800 billion to bail them out of the situation.
Gilbert: Yes, if I can put it another way, you and I know that we have a solution for people. You know these young people there on Wall Street, the productivist enterprises, you know, showing people how to get started in your own business.
You don't need a lot of capital like they would like us to believe, you know. And we've done this both in the United States in the 80s, we've done it in several European countries, how to get started working with little or no capital because capital comes from work, you know. And so we have solutions how to help people to make a life for themselves.
But if you start going into business for yourself, you'll begin to perceive the laws that will be against you, the difficulties that are placed there like hurdles that are so unbelievable to get over. And then you find out you're doing something against the law. And so there's something that needs to become prior to recovering ourselves and living the life that we can live.
And that is we have to deal with these tyrannical laws and the economically powerful. We have to deal with them. Somebody from another country cannot come here to do that. This is for us to do. Either all of humanity is going to be enslaved or Americans are going to wake up and take care of the situation. What
Richard: a beautiful ending to our program.
Thank you, Gilbert.
And a special deal, we're selling it at half price. I think we're even paying for the postage, so that's a really good deal. That's on our site. You'll also be able to see and listen to a great program I did with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco about the attacks against you guys in New York, Gilbert, against Dr.
Norberto Keppe's Analytical Trilogy. There's a radio program there, and we have the video as well of what happened during that fateful day, three days and a half, when Dr. Kempi and Dr. Cláudia Pacheco were put in prison on trumped-up charges. All of that is available. It's been great to have you here, Gilbert. It's wonderful to talk to an American with this kind of consciousness because this consciousness has been lacking in all of our activism throughout North America.
So I really applaud your efforts in making us more conscious about that. Thanks very much. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Conscious Planet radio returns next week.
We'll talk to you then. Bye-bye for now.
