Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Our radio program originates from São Paulo, Brazil, and we're available always through iTunes, but also now on a new radio network called Conscious Planet Radio at consciousplanetradio.com. A conscious planet, boy, is that ever needed right now. I know many people are feeling that something's just not right with our world today, but don't know how to characterize this general malaise they feel any more than that.
Our program is trying to address that situation, trying to shed the light not only on what's wrong, but also trying to offer a way out. But let me be clear. Seeing what's wrong in terms of understanding how we got to this place is a vitally important step in righting ourselves and beginning to move in the right direction again. We bring that consciousness every week as we analyze the world through the lens of psychosociopathology, which is a big word meaning the science of what's wrong with us.
Essential consciousness for a conscious planet. This week on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Well we did some pretty spiffy upgrades to our site over the weekend. By we I mean our great web manager Will Lajeunesse and I. Will is soon to be joining us down here in Brazil, which will be very nice and much easier too than talking through Skype all the time.
We upgraded because our dear friend, Susan Berkley, was heading into New York on the weekend to check out the Occupy Wall Street protest, and we wanted to get the site reflecting something relevant for them, which was some more direct links to Dr. Keppe's sterling work that analyzes the pathology of power. This is a seminal book Keppe wrote when he lived in the U.S.
In the early 1980s. The book is Liberation of the People. He noted the destruction that was occurring in the U.S. And that that was caused largely by the power structure that was driving the country into the ground, not only because of their greed, but because of the psychological sickness those in power display. Yeah, this is pretty wild stuff and makes Liberation of the People, the Pathology of Power, such meaty and rewarding reading.
So Susan Berkley was down at Wall Street over the weekend distributing this book to the Occupy Wall Street crowd. I think up to a thousand people there on the weekend, as I understand it. We'll hear from Susan today, but it will be from an interview taped before she went down. I'll try and get her back this week for an update on what's happening down there on Wall Street.
But I'd love to continue this consciousness campaign. So if you'd like your free copy of Liberation of the People, just write me at joneshealing at gmail.com. I'll be very happy to mail you one. I'll just charge you a little for postage and the book is yours. Let me get you a taste though just to whet your appetite a little bit. Keppe says in this book the purpose of my book Liberation of the People is to try to make the people conscious of the fact that they are dominated by individuals who are sick, paranoid, cowardly and corrupt.
That's how Keppe puts it. That doesn't pull any punches, does it? The people are ill, anguished, and unhappy, Keppe goes on to say, because they feel crushed by the powerful. I can tell you from personal experience, this scientific evaluation, psychoanalytical evaluation, is missing in all the analysis we read or see. Without this piece, we keep voting the bad guys, quote-unquote, out of office and expecting the replacements to fix the thing, but the system they've set up is seriously unbalanced, and so are they.
And because we didn't listen to Keppe when he wrote about this back in the mid-1980s, our society has progressed in its decadence, and the psychotics pulling the strings have become more and more emboldened as they realize nothing will happen to them. Charles Ferguson, the director of Inside Job, the searing documentary that explores the financial coup that took place in 2008 when $800 billion of taxpayers' money went to Wall Street, he was shocked by that.
In his Oscar acceptance speech, he made reference to it. Not one of these guys has gone to jail, he lamented. So it's time to bring a stop to all that. All that's explored in Liberation of the People, and we'll have more information from that book as we go through our programs the next few weeks. It's an important book. But I do want to bring Susan Berkley in today for a couple of segments.
We just celebrated Jewish New Year, and so I wanted to get some thoughts on what it means to be Jewish in today's age, and if it still has any relevance, especially related to Judeo-Christian philosophy that comes from that great faith. And then we'll talk a little bit about Occupy Wall Street, too. So, Susan, first, then we'll have Dr. Cláudia Barinhart-Basheko in the second half of our show.
I'm joined by my dear friend in New York, Susan Berkley. Hello. Happy Jewish New Year. We're celebrating that, and I think it would be kind of an interesting conversation for us to have, Susan, about what it means to be Jewish here in 2011. And you've had some thoughts about this because you were listening to a kind of an interesting interview with Rabbi David Hartman recently.
Why don't you give me some opening thoughts about what you're thinking, what your perspective is, and we'll take it from there. We've got about 10 minutes here, so let's get into that a little bit.
Susan Berkley: Sure, Rich. First, I just want to preface all that by saying that I am not a very religious person. I came from a family of somewhat secular jews.
Uh my my grandparents may they rest in peace, my mother's parents died in the holocaust, but um we were not really raised you know religiously. So i consider myself you know i have the judaism in me i guess part of my psychogenetic structure, but like you it wasn't until i really became um familiar with dr Keppe's work that i became deeply spiritualized.
Because i heard you say that on one of your radio shows recently, that coming to Brazil helped to really spiritualize you. And I feel the same, you know, getting into contact with Dr. Keppe's work, because it is, while it's not religious in any way, there's a component of his work, Analytical Trilogy, which respects the inherent spirituality and the theology within each person.
So it was in that light when i heard this rabbi speak the other day on a radio show on on our national public radio, a show called on being, that it it really uh sparked some stuff in me. It got me thinking and i thought you know in honor it is the jewish holidays right now um which is really uh it's such an ancient ancient celebration.
I think it impacts everybody just as the christmas season impacts everybody. It brings the spirit to the planet. So again, I just want to say I am not deeply steeped in the traditions and I just, I'm trying to link what I heard with what I know from Dr. Keppe's work. So I was listening to this rabbi, this David Hartman being interviewed, and he was saying that God, when he thought about the disgrace that happens in the world, terrible tragedies that happen, and I don't need to go into great detail about what those are.
Everybody, pick your favorite one. He said it occurred to him that how could God be omnipotent if he allows these tragedies to happen. So therefore, it was comforting to him to recognize that. So therefore, he assumed that God must be a finite God. And this was like the jumping off point for me. And he also spoke about the fact that part of Judaism means we argue, you know, So you have somehow are encouraged to argue things.
And I was thinking, well, aren't there any dogmas in Judaism, meaning facts, statements of truth, statement of fact about the creator that must be? And I went and I did a little bit of research and I found out there really aren't. There are 13 principles of faith that were put forth by Maimonides, who was a preeminent medieval Jewish philosopher and a great Torah scholar and physician that are pretty much, some of them are quite similar to Christian thought.
But then I thought that, you know, there seems to be a disconnect somewhere because there are certain dogmas that we must follow, Rich. And I thought this was like kind of like the jumping off point. And, of course, in Dr. Keppe's work, he talks about he's got the new physics, which also analyzes and discusses exactly what this divine energy is.
Richard: Yeah, I think I think what we could talk about here, Susan, I want to come back to this very common argument that this rabbi proposed that that if there's disgrace, it's not my fault.
And it's proof that there's no God. That is a very common argument, and we should come back to that. But let's focus on this aspect that you're picking up on now, which is that there is a way to be, you know. Although these dogmas are maybe not that well defined, or there are very few of them, there are, in all spiritual traditions, sort of rules for the way we're supposed to be.
And this is something that's very prominent in doctrine. Keppe's work too. So we could make that link. That there are ways that we're supposed to be, right? You were talking about this essential energy, this way of being. There are sort of behaviors, attitudes that bring us more happiness and health in our lives. Isn't that true?
Susan: Yes, there is. So as our friend, Dr.
Cláudia Pacheco, who you interview frequently on this show, she says that there is a frequency being emitted by the universe. And the more completely we receive this energy, the more it enters our bodies and organizes our entire structure. So this frequency, this energy, universal energy, has some definite components to it, definite qualities of goodness, of truth, of beauty, of harmony, of consciousness, of awareness.
And this is the frequency that we need to tune ourselves into, that we are naturally made to resonate with. So uh it's important that we study how we got out of tune with this energy so that we may return back into it, back to it.
Richard: And we know we have this energy uh susan because um one of my students was telling me the other day he saw a horrible sight.
He saw some criminal on the streets holding a gun to a taxi driver's head here in São Paulo. And this this happens down here. I've never seen it happen myself, but it does happen. It happens everywhere in the world, I'm sure. But my student was saying that he was upset for 48 hours. He was so disturbed by this. And this is not an overly sort of what you'd call an overly sensitive guy.
He's a Brazilian guy, so he's got this kind of feeling. But he said that it was such a shock to him that it disturbed him for like 48 hours. He had trouble sleeping. It really bothered him. And I was helping him and the rest of my students to understand that this is because this is like an attack against this nature you're talking about, against this essential structure that we have kind of evidence that we have this inside us.
And
Susan: you know that's an extreme example, but i think all of us can i all of us can identify with smaller examples of that happen in our day-to-day life. Like so for example if you speak ill of somebody, even something as simple as gossip, or if you lash out in anger, I don't care who you are, you are going to feel it immediately afterwards.
You might get a headache, but you will have some sort of manifestation. Your blood pressure will rise. You'll feel it in the pit of your stomach. So you immediately know that when you act that way, and also if somebody demonstrates that kind of energy toward you, or you see somebody even speaking ill of somebody else in front of you, are yelling at somebody or fighting with somebody.
So it doesn't have to be even somebody you know holding a gun to the head uh. So unfortunately our world has become a place where this now has become um banal you know uh evil or it's become banal. It's sort of yeah anything goes just let it all out express what you feel um to great detriment. And so I think uh so much of what we learn with Dr Keppe his work is all about analyzing all the many ways in which we get off course, because there is a course, there is a compass, there is a way to be against which we must measure ourselves both internally and externally as a society at every moment.
Yeah
Richard: so questioning whether there's sort of a good God or a finite God is kind of a secondary question. The real question is, how are we aligning ourselves with this sort of universal sense of what's good and what's bad? And as you said, we know that inside
Susan: us. We do. And Dr. Keppe says the best way to increase this alignment, and in fact, our own vibration to a higher one, is through honesty and ethics.
And so so great thinkers and and beings came to this planet like jesus and many many others wise people to show us the way. And if we pay attention to what they taught, and now it's the religious season in the jewish faith, we will have the answers to how to proceed in order to increase the level of energy in the world and in ourselves.
So um one way to do that i think is being as honest as possible. And it's the fastest way to increase that energy. And this does not depend on how much we know or how much we've learned or even on a certain technique. I think it's like we have a North Star inside of us. We have a compass point. And we all know what that is.
So it's time to stop denying it. Let me
Richard: take a quick break here. You're on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Conscious Planet Radio Network. And we are back in just a moment with Susan Berkley. Don't go away. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Our website at healing through consciousness.com has lots of information about dr Keppe's work. If you're intrigued by what we're talking about you'll be even more intrigued the deeper you get.
This i can promise you because his work is expansive and deep and very very beautiful. Susan Berkley my dear friend from new york has joined me. She's been studying with dr Keppe for nigh on 30 years. And so has a wealth of experience. There's a word you don't hear very often on radio. Has a wealth of experience to share with us. And Susan, I wanted to come back to your conversation about the interview you were listening to with Rabbi David Hartman, where he was talking about that if there's disgrace in the world, if there's corruption in the world, this seems to prove the existence of a non-perfect God, an infinite God.
And this, I think, is a very common argument that we see throughout the particularly academic world, more intellectualized world, that if there's a God, how would he permit this corruption to happen that we see all around us every day? And I think this really avoids the principal point. What do you have to say about that here at the beginning of this segment of our show?
Susan: Right. So exactly. God is only full of love and goodness and beauty and could never, ever betray his creations, his children, or punish people or send death or suffering or pain to people. So we create this confusion ourselves, Rich. There's two key things that Dr. Keppe has built his whole body of work upon. One is the study of human psychopathology. Well, there's three things, actually.
The other is the study of sociological psychopathology. And then you have spirit pathology. So in a way, we're kind of, we have like a triple whammy. You know, we have our own inner pathology that we're not aware of. We have the pathology of society that we're not aware of. And then there's also this brilliant study on spirit pathology, which is very controversial, but he's written several books about this.
That are very scientifically founded, that there are energies that impact us as well from outside of us. And
Richard: by pathologies, you're talking about this corruption, maybe, from our essential nature that you were talking about at the beginning.
Susan: Sure. And it's not just our essential nature. It's the essential nature of the Creator, this emanation of energy that is good and positive and beautiful and truthful.
Richard: And so we see that all around us, we can see this disturbance from the way we are. It's like a person who has developed health problems or has developed some problems in their lives with relationships or something, and in effect, blaming God for that when we need to look a little bit deeper inside ourselves and inside our society to find the more real causes of these problems.
And
Susan: so this is where we get into the whole matter also of Ethics Rich because we not only receive an energy, we transmit an energy as well. And it's kind of shocking and scary to think about the fact that maybe we are contributing to some sort of an energetic pollution on the planet because of what we allow ourselves to resonate with. You know, um, and and not, this is not to say that obviously there's a disgrace, you know, there's a hurricane or whatever, that we're to blame.
You know, that those horrible people that were saying, oh, when Katrina hit, it's because of the godless lawless people, you know, that's no, we're not there at all. But um, we it's difficult, I think, Rich, for us to keep this beautiful energy inside of us and to allow it to flow through us. It gets distorted. And then we can't think clearly anymore.
We get confused. We don't even know how to act or what to do.
Richard: And this is the real value, I think, of the Judeo-Christian faith or of any philosophy that talks about this, that it gives us kind of a roadmap, a way to be. And we have really discarded that over the last, certainly in the 20th century, We've discarded that roadmap of sort of rules of ways that we should be that are in alignment with the truth of ourselves.
And so we're in this situation where we're fighting against ourselves, destroying the environment, even our relationships, even our health all around us, and blaming God for that problem.
Susan: That's right, Rich. At this time of year, especially in our tradition, the Jewish tradition, we do take the time to take that fearless moral inventory of ourselves and see how we are off track. But there is a thing that...
You should be on track with, you know, God's energy, God's beautiful, loving, kind energy. So that's what's important. There are very distinct rules, laws of this beautiful, loving, divine energy that are set, you know. And I just couldn't sit by hearing this Jewish philosopher, this person of influence, say that God is a finite being. I just went insane when I heard that.
I had to get on this show and put that right, so thanks for giving me that that opportunity. Sure,
Richard: sure. It's like it's like your bullhorn here, the spiritual bullhorn. Let's let's do a little morph here, Susan, because I you're you're in New York. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about the Occupy Wall Street protest, which is going on.
One of the the pillars of Dr Keppe's work that you mentioned was this question of socio pathology, this idea that um we have a social economic structure that's causing problems. It's like a sickness inside the structures of society. And so when I see Occupy Wall Street going on and the sort of dismissive way that many people in the media are treating this, I think it would be really interesting to have your take on that.
What's happening? What's going on there? How are you guys seeing what's going on in this Occupy Wall Street? It seems like a kind of an important movement somehow to me. So
Susan: you and I are children of the 60s, right? And my hope is that this is sort of the new version of what occurred then. It's starting to show signs of that. So I haven't been down there yet.
My plan is to go down this weekend and really talk to people and, you know, get the feeling and to really take, I haven't had time to really study their website, which everybody can, but it appears that these Occupy movements are springing up in major cities all across the U.S. Um to protest uh what has been what has been going on with the financial crisis.
Uh now the media initially is portraying these people as kind of hippies, you know, but now you're starting to see that they're being joined by by average New Yorkers, all kinds. And when I say hippies, you know, they they're portraying them as kind of unwashed shabby kids that couldn't get a job anyway, nobody would want to hire, you know, those kinds of things, like it's kind of a rabble.
But now you're starting to see they're being joined by average people from the populace, working people, people of all socioeconomic strata are starting to support them, because I think inside us, I think the American people are really really not just angry but disappointed and feeling like we don't have the leadership that we need. So what, like 25 years ago, Dr Keppe wrote a book called Liberation of the People, The Pathology of Power.
What a book before it's time, Rich. I know you are a real scholar of that book, perhaps even more than I am. But within a core point that Dr. Keppe makes in that book is that the people have more power than the powerful, that we are indeed control by the top 1% that we, the people, are totally out of touch with what we can do to build our own society, that it's very complicated because we are alienated and then there's a lot of alienating stuff that comes at us that we accept.
So we accept that alienation, but we really need to start to form together and start our own businesses wherever possible with like-minded people, start our own residences, like you are living in Brazil, which is so beautiful to see, uh, and really retake our planet and our country, because those who are in power now are just destroying it. And uh you know there's malicious intent that I think people are finally starting to realize here.
Uh we have let it go, we've let the powerful get to, and when I say the powerful I I mean, we've let elements within our government, elements especially within our banking system, which has created so much mayhem recently, elements within corporations that have been harming the environment, and on and on and on. You know, the pharmaceutical, people just don't realize the power that they have to retake their own lives and the planet.
Richard: I think as you're talking, I was listening to sort of the argument that people throw up, but these people are just protesting. They don't have any solutions. And I think this is one of the key pieces of disinformation that's put out there to discourage people from acting, because what we need to do is stop the corruption so we can breathe, so then we can reorganize things a little bit.
We need to put a stop on this kind of protest is an absolutely essential aspect of what's happening today. Stop the corruption that's been happening on Wall Street that everybody or many people now know or are beginning to suspect has been happening there. There have been documentaries about this. So we need to stop and then we can take a breath a little bit and reorganize or reconstitute things in a better way.
So it's a fundamental part. And we can't just dismiss this by saying, oh, they don't know what they're doing or they don't have any solutions. It's easy to criticize. You know, there there's another movement that's going on here that I think needs to be be considered. So I was very interested in what you were saying
Susan: there. Yes. So I think the bottom line is the answer is not going to come from government.
I think people are slowly starting to wake up to that fact. The answer is not to go out in the woods and hunker down in your bunker and grow your own food and live off the grid. The answer is to reorganize a true society, and we the people can do that. You see, I think people have been so beaten up that they've lost confidence or they've allowed themselves to – look, there's no blame here.
But it's terrible because people just don't have confidence and they go out and rebuild their lives. They are focused on retirement, getting their peace. You know, I got mine. Oops, and now my retirement isn't there anymore and I'm becoming sick. And, oh, what do I do? You know, so we can do so much as individuals and especially if we come together to rebuild things.
I'm a big proponent of small business. I think almost everybody that has developed a skill level, a skill set, can get together with other like-minded people and start their own business. We must do this. We have to reclaim our country through work, through good work, beautiful work. And I know I'm sounding like I'm spouting platitudes, but people need to get this book, Liberation of the People, and understand, Rich, what is underneath all this.
Understand that power is pathological and and we the people have a part in this in a way, because we've we also have an intention, every human being has an intention that is other than healthy, and we need to see this in ourselves with no blame, so that we can rebuild what's beautiful, what's truthful and what's good.
Richard: Yep, this is exactly right. That book Liberation of the People, if you're interested in what we're talking about, that that book is really uh an essential book for for you to read.
And I understand Susan you want to head down there to uh on the weekend and start distributing some of those books, which I think is a fantastic idea. Let's do it. I mean if I were there I'd I'd be I'd be there with you, I'd take bring
Susan: my own bullhorn even. We've got no bullhorns are allowed, you have to no microphones, if you know, it's like so grassroots.
If you have something you you have to say, you say it and the people next to you repeat it and pass it on and on and on. It's like a giant game of telephone through the crowd. But I can't wait to get down there, it's gonna be a lot of fun, it'd be very interesting
Richard: to see what's going on. Great, this book is available on our website at healing through consciousness.com and I highly recommend it.
It's a revolutionary book because it takes the blinders off the true cause of what's been going on in our society, not only our human our individual difficulties and problems, our inversions, our ways of seeing the world, but the social uh sort of institution of those pathologies is also a major cause for concern. Rich,
Susan: I just want to say um you know on the cover of Liberation of the People, the pathology of power, it says this is the first study of the psychosocial pathology of people with power, psychotics who are impeding human development and destroying society.
If we don't stop them immediately we will witness the rapid demise of civilization. Important for all of us to know.
Richard: Yeah, very important. I'm in. Okay, thank you, Susan. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Conscious Planet Radio. We just changed networks. And check us out at heatingthroughconsciousness.com. We're back with Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco for more on what's going on with a human being in just a moment.
Don't go away. The program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. And we have been absent for a couple of weeks because, well, I've been traveling and we've been doing other things around here. It's very, very busy in Brazil. And I hope to give you some sense of that today. As we talk with Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco again, who's joined us. But I also want to mention that we're also coming to you on a new radio network, which is kind of an exciting thing because this has a lot of new programs and new opportunities for you to listen.
It's called Conscious Planet Radio. And Cláudia and I, as we were sort of talking before we started to record today, we're talking about what can be done. We have a world that's in such... Dire need of assistance. And when I talk with my friends in Canada, when I was there, Cláudia, recently, talking about what we're doing here, the work we're doing, and the problems as we see them in the world, I felt kind of a frustration in people.
People saying, you know, okay, but what do we do? How do we fix that? And that's not such an easy thing, is it, to
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: fix? Well, this kind of question shows that the person is totally outside of reality, Richard. It's totally theomaniac question, because how come nobody has any quick answer or miracle to perform in order to fix all this huge mess?
Even the elites, I think they don't know what to do now, because it's such a mess that they created for the planet, and they don't know how to get out of this. Painted
Richard: themselves in a corner.
Cláudia: So yeah, so I think Richard that knowing more or less or knowing have a note having a notion of what happened before, like from now back back,
Richard: what got us
Cláudia: to this place, yes, knowing this is very important, because if we have to restart something, start again in another way, we must know the basics of what went wrong.
Richard: And this is a possibility we might have to start again, right? Well,
Cláudia: we have to. And I think that faith is an element that is very much needed in the moment. I think that humanity gave its backs to Creator, wanted to live a life without him, which is the creator. So he owns all the rules of the world and the cosmos.
Richard: Kind of impossible to live without him, isn't it?
Cláudia: And so faith is something that is really, really needed in the moment more than ever. If we don't have faith that goodness, truth will prevail, then it's nothing to be done. It's it's just a matter of preparing oneself innerly to be able to cope, to endure all the suffering and the pain that is increasing day by day. And you can see environmental catastrophes day by day, more and more earthquakes and floodings and hurricanes, and then there is this thing of poverty and hunger.
Richard: Disease.
Cláudia: Diseases and injustice and turmoils, political turmoils, Middle East. And now the financial breakdown, the financial problem, this
Richard: horrible economic situation that the banking systems and the Wall Street and all this speculation created to the planet. It's such a hell that they created for
Cláudia: the planet. So now if we see more and more numbers of people dying of starvation and disease and injustices and wars continue, small wars, and they claim, many people claim, they are preparing for a third world war, which
Richard: would be the major and probably the
Cláudia: last, as Einstein said.
And then we have this thing of the freedom and civil liberties are taken more and more away and people being more and more scrutinized and controlled and investigated.
Richard: Attached in
Cláudia: a way, aren't they? You see, with this excuse of terrorism, liberties went away. And life is becoming more and more difficult, more and more hard, more and more ugly, more and more unpleasant.
So I have been talking to many clients of mine for a while, for some years. So they could at least prepare a little bit innerly to have some link with the transcendental dimension and dealing with their faith and feeding their faith. Because if we don't do that, things will become unbearable for many.
Richard: And when you speak about faith, you said faith in goodness, faith in truth and beauty.
And
Cláudia: in God, as a person, as
Richard: a being.
Cláudia: And I think that we have to go back to the origin to understand what is happening now. And faith was denied a long, long time ago.
Richard: Yeah, so now what you're going to do
Cláudia: is take us on a journey now of what got us to this place. And I think this would be historically very interesting.
Yeah, I'll do a resume.
Richard: I'll do a resume about that. Yeah, a summary of all that. Yeah, a summary. Yeah,
Cláudia: okay, that's great, let's go. Okay, and so fasten seatbelts and we go to
Richard: the origin. I'm totally prepared. It
Cláudia: is very important this investigation that Keppe started about the psychological inner life of human beings, because from there, everything that is more important begins.
Society begins in the way we think, the way we evaluate things, the way we reason, the way we judge. And the laws we created for us to live and to obey are coming from our understanding, from our inner sense or inner common sense or the inner lack of common sense, whatever. If we are too much upside down in our understanding and perception of things, we will create a society which is upside down as well, with upside down laws.
Which
Richard: we have done.
Cláudia: Which is absolutely true, concrete, here, now. Well, but this research Keppe did about the psychological universe of man, which encompasses theology, philosophy, law, science, art. Everything we do started one day from one or more living, thinking, feeling, intuitively creatures, like we have an inner life, which is very powerful, very rich, and this produces everything we have in this planet besides or beyond nature in itself.
So civilization
Richard: was built by mankind. Right, like a Weltanschauung as the Germans call it, like this. A way of seeing the world is what you mean.
Cláudia: Way of seeing, way of behaving, way of relating to it, way of managing it, managing nature and dealing with nature.
Richard: Reacting to things.
Cláudia: Reacting, relating to each other. Everything that is our civilization, so everything we do, we live, we think, it's coming from our inner lives, our understanding, our intellect, our consciousness, our feelings.
So the inner life of human beings is the source of everything in the planet, even the source of energy. Most of the energy we have in the planet is it's transmitted or retransmitted channeled by human beings and human beings brains. So it's not only like you don't see energy coming only from from the trees or from telluric energy from the globe and the and from matter, but we as human beings we channel energy to that should harmonize um the other kind of beings in the planet, material um vegetable animal animal vegetable, they should align with whatever
Richard: forests
Cláudia: plants.
So we should be harmonizing with our energy, harmonizing all this net, the energetic net, the synchronicity, this field of energy, this magnetic field that involves our planet Earth. But when Keppe started to understand, to better study the source of our suffering, what goes wrong that a person gets psychotic in delirium, in hallucinations, epileptic, bipolar, depressive, schizoparanoid, schizophrenic? Um why people get psychotic why people get psychopaths are psychopaths and they kill their fellow man and they take pleasure from doing evil why do people get sick if if we should by nature have our organisms work Perfectly.
So why our genetics went wrong and it's all faulty now? What happened? And then Keppe started to research and research in the field of psychoanalysis. All the schools of psychopathology he studied in depth. And philosophy. And he went backwards like in the past. Like he went back.
Richard: Looking
Cláudia: for the beginners of metaphysics and Socrates and the pre-Socratics and Aristotle and Plato and the patristica.
I don't know
Richard: how to use it. The patrician, I think. I don't remember my philosophy, but I think it's like the patrician.
Cláudia: And all philosophies, all philosophers. And then he studied religion and theology. And but it was seeing his clients and attending his clients and trying to help their suffering that he understood that behind our suffering there is this thing of inversion.
We are upside down and we perceive good as evil and evil is good, so we're totally upside down. So sometimes we act, we destroy many important things thinking that we are doing good. It's a lack of perception or an inverted upside down perception of things. And I understand that many people are deceived by their own inversion and other people's inversions and the inversion in society, and then there is this also another kind of inversion that we are sort of aware of, which is because our ethics, our inner ethics, detects the pleasure we have in doing and we take in doing what is wrong and what is evil.
And as you can see, since the beings are very, very small, very young as child, as children, so you see in them the pleasure to destroy, destroy their sisters, their brothers, their tools, their toys, they're animals. And this grows with us as long as our develop we grow up this comes with us and it gets more and more like masqueraded deceived by a social mask social protocol.
And behind the social mask and social protocol there is this evil pleasure in attacking and causing harm and suffering and pain in other people.
Richard: I was thinking of the movie Home Alone, where they leave a little kid alone in the house and he just terrorizes them. We're all like this. We're all like this Home Alone thing, only masked and hidden. We need to take a quick break.
We'll come back and discuss this more because I feel that, Cláudia, you're touching into the core problem that we've been facing. And we haven't understood this very well before Norberto Keppe's work. So maybe now we can bring some more illumination to this whole area, which would be very, very important and valuable. We are back in just a moment on the Conscious Planet Radio, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
Stay right where you are. It'll get even more interesting, I'm sure. On the Conscious Planet Radio, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, I'm Richard Lloyd Jones with Cláudia Baron-Hoppersheiko. You were speaking before the break of this mask kind of...
Cláudia: And you mentioned the Home Alone. Home Alone show. Yeah, but
Richard: what the child does in his home. We do.
Cláudia: We do, and adults do to their country, to their nations, to the nations, to their country.
So what people do, what children do to their homes when they're grown up, they do to their countries. It's the same thing.
Richard: I'm just back from Canada, you know, Cláudia, and I felt this very much in my country, which has really become a country uh sort of following exactly the model that the United States has come to the end of the road in.
And now there was a meeting while I was there in Canada of the top five economists in the country looking at the challenges to the Canadian economy. And you know what the biggest challenge to the Canadian economy is the American economy because Canada is following directly. So this is like a playing with this country of Canada throwing it away in in a way that deteriorates the resources deteriorates the the fabric of what Canada was to follow a kind of a crazy delirious speculative.
Many people
Cláudia: are deceived they are inverted they are
Richard: upside down they thought this would be best
Cláudia: for Canada. Yeah so you know Richard um people generally think that what is biological can harm our our lives what is social and in to some degree it is already harming it is indeed harming. But there is something which is more powerful which is the psychological which is harming and harmed and created as a consequence the harming social structure and what we eat what we drink what we live what we do what we breathe the air we breathe the
Richard: medicines we're forced to
Cláudia: take.
So all these are consequences of a psychopathology which is not sexual which is not coming from any sexual um trauma any any anything biological. It comes from the almost transcendental aspect of humanity which is what Keppe calls theomania, the mania of being godlike or above God, in terms that each human being hides in his inner self a tremendous pride, a tremendous megalomania, narcissism, egotism, thinking that life should be in accordance to their own ideas and own desires.
So each one, even if you are a stupid, uncultured, drunk person, you will be very theomaniac, and you will think that life should be in accordance to what you want to be done. And even more those guys, because they don't submit to work, to study, to sacrifice their wishes. They want to live in relaxation and fun all the time.
Richard: Even to treatment they don't submit.
They
Cláudia: don't submit to any good law in society. So they are incredibly theomaniac, incredibly arrogant, proud of their own ideas and who they are. And so Keppe noticed that the root of everything that is wrong relies on our idea of being not only godlike but above God and denying God's laws and the existence of a God.
Richard: Right. And we don't think of it like that.
We don't think like I'm being above God.
Cláudia: So atheists are very crazy. Atheists are very psychotic because they do this openly. They deny the existence of a creator. And this is mental sickness. And people don't realize this is mental sickness because they are denying the obvious main principle that there is an
Richard: above force, a source of everything that exists, and we are not the owners of our lives.
And so people prefer to think that we are like a spontaneous reality or we came from spontaneity, spontaneous creation. Or from...
Cláudia: In order just to deny the existence of this being. Right,
Richard: we create elaborate theories.
Cláudia: Can you imagine, Richard, the amount of envy that we have and people have inside of themselves, envy of God? Like when you think some of the interviews Malachi Martin gave when he was still alive, he used to compare.
Like Michael Akinjo said, who besides God? That only God was the being. And then, he says, and then came Adam and Eve and said, who besides God? We are gods. So when this started, this huge megalomania, crisis of psychosis and envy of God, it was so big to our humanity and it started a long time ago that we split we split our inner selves like we created a um like a double a sort of pseudo reality at the side of the true reality
Richard: schizophrenia schizophrenia
Cláudia: this is a schizophrenia.
So we started to destroy everything we had because we did not did not our tune our resonance with nature was broken. So the resonance with our inner lives the inner source of energy the outer sources of energy they were broken because we wanted to reorganize the universe according to our own megalomania denying
Richard: the way it was. I'm trying to impose our ideas on what it could
Cláudia: be.
So you understand this, Richard. Being an atheist is not natural, it's abnormal, it's psychotic. Wow. Because each person has in his inner self the perfect notion that there is a being, there is something, there is someone out there which is determining what is what in the cosmos. So
Richard: what's sort of personifying this psychotic state in the human being today is science, because science is trying to be proving reality without God.
So it's become atheistic. Of course, there are many scientists who believe in God, of course, but the purpose of science is to remove God from the explanations of the universe. And
Cláudia: you may say, okay, or someone may say, okay, now, lately, people went too materialistic. They went too far from the notion of transcendence, of magnetism, of the invisible energy, which is like the plenitude of cosmos.
It's all plenty of energy. It's not a vacuum. It's plenty of energy. And this energy is organizing everything, and this energy is emanating from God, from a being. And you know, you may say, okay, but when there was in the Middle Ages, the churches were in the center of humanity and civilization, society was not better than it is now. And I can say yes, for sure, because the religious institutions, they suffered from the same theomania.
They were not serving God. They were not living Christianity in its pure form. They wanted to be God-like themselves or above God themselves. They were like taking advantage from the name of God in order to enslave people. And this has been going on and on because the most psychotic ones want power. They want to perform the role of gods in society. And the powerful people, are they financial powerful, economic powerful, whatever, whatever, whether politically
Richard: powerful, people who are
Cláudia: starving for power, they are the most psychotic ones.
And they dedicate their lives day by day, 24 hours a day, to be powerful, to become powerful, to get power in order to control the life of people, to perform a role of rulers and gods. And as they are totally and submissive to what is reality, they become evil gods. They become evil powerful. And this is my concern, Richard, that these groups, this elite, so-called elite in the world, they are the elite, the psychotic elite.
And they created and they are developing a way to enslave humanity like in a format that it's almost...
Richard: Well, they're succeeding, Cláudia.
Cláudia: We don't know what to do anymore. No, it's incredible. We don't
Richard: know because you are so much surveilled
Cláudia: and controlled. Everything we say, it's being recorded. Everything we live. And if they find you dangerous to their plans they kill you yeah they eliminate you they neutralize you as they say
Richard: just to show just to sort of characterize this psychotic nature you're talking about.
I remember seeing an interview with one of the Rockefellers not a well one of the well-known Rockefellers with a former film producer who was wanting to be a governor of a state in the United States and I'm sorry I don't remember the name. But he became friends with this Rockefeller. This Rockefeller guy knew that he wanted to be a politician, and so he had his secretary call this producer and say, would you like to meet one of the Rockefellers?
And they became kind of friends. And he was talking, this film producer who wanted to become a politician was talking about why he wanted to go into politics, which was to help the people of his state. And Rockefeller said to him, but why do you care about these people? Why do you waste your time worrying about them? Look after yourself. Look after your family.
Leave those sort of sheep to have their own, to rise to their own level. And it was kind of a chilling moment in the interview or the discussion I saw with this man this man, because it showed this psychotic nature that you're talking about. Now, this is one example, but in a way we can see that acted out throughout history and in our modern world when we don't give people food to eat, when we don't give people opportunity.
We can see in a way that this psychotic nature has become a very dominant force in our society today.
Cláudia: Now, the good news are, Richard, that this energy that I'm speaking about, the energy of consciousness, the esoteric energy of our esoteric life, which is our inner life, is so powerful. It's so powerful. And those psychotics, they are very much afraid of this energy.
And so we have an authority when we are in touch with this inner truth. And we have an authority that it's really important if we want to change the perspective of the world. And if they create and if we cannot avoid a third world war, which would be to eliminate a big portion of humanity, we will see blood running all around. But those who stay and we have better chances to stay if you have a more like centered kind of attitude contact
Richard: with this inner life
Cláudia: because you have more energy you have more health you're healthier you have better conditions to survive you are smarter you perceive things better so we have better chances to survive.
Even though we are not violent, we don't have guns, we don't have weapons, we don't have an army, but our influence can be very big. And these are good news, I understand. And also we have to have faith that God is the ruler, God has his plans, and everything goes in direction to goodness. So evil does not exist by itself. Evil has no essence.
So everything, like the tendency, the flow, the stream goes to what is real, and what is real is good, and it goes to God, to the source. So if we are in tune with that, we don't have to be afraid of what is going to happen to us. But we have also to help other people. This is the question. We have to, even to help God, to build a true kingdom here, like a real society.
So this is our destiny, is to try to build here and to work in this direction, not only try, but doing the best in order to build a true society.
Richard: You talked about faith. I think you're also characterizing humility, Cláudia.
Cláudia: This is
Richard: absolutely,
Cláudia: because faith includes submission. Submission to someone or something which is much bigger than we are.
Richard: Very beautiful. Our program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
Wonderful to have you with us, Cláudia. Thank you very much. And we'll talk to you next time on the Conscious Planet Radio.
