Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and it's another edition of Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. In preparation for our program today, I came across this phrase, Our earth is degenerate in these latter days. Bribery and corruption are common, and there are signs the world is speedily coming to an end. A modern statement? Sure. But this was lifted from an Assyrian tablet in 2800 BC, and that was always wise to be wary of these apocryphal stories.
Although this one is widely quoted, it's the kind of fact that's almost too wild to be literally true. But it does speak a truth nonetheless. Whether we're talking almost 5,000 years ago or last Tuesday, it's very clear we're up against the wall. So many humanity threatening crises all at the same time, it's not difficult to perk up when anyone mentions the Mayan calendar in 2012.
It ends, you know. It's very clear mankind has been on the wrong path for some time, but can we be more specific about that wrong path? What are the steps we've taken off the straight and narrow? We'll look at that today. Eliminating faith and truth, the failure of psychological science, today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We are broadcasting on the Positive World Radio Network along with a number of other idealistic broadcasters who are keen to offer new ideas and perspectives to give you a better handle on the world we live in.
I think there's over 30 shows broadcasting there now at pwrnradio.com and a lot of jazz shows too, if you're into really great jazz music.
Our email is at joneshealing at gmail.com. And we'd love you to join us on Facebook too. Hey, let's make use of this social networking stuff.
I know it's ultimately just another way for them to keep track of what we're doing. A data mining wet dream seems to be what Facebook is all about, so I'm always of two minds about it. But I figure, hey, we've got this window of opportunity open before they close it. Let's use it to connect up and join together in a wave of consciousness, because that's what can change the world.
And man, do we need consciousness. I mean, If you're like me, you'll notice the amount of potential in these social networks, but likewise feel a little despair at the uselessness of most of what passes through people's Facebook and Twitter pages. But now I'm sounding like an old fogey, aren't I? So really, let me just end by saying I'd love to know what socially impactful stuff you're up to.
So do make sure we're connected. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, and Richard Lloyd Jones. Both of those Facebook and Twitter pages are around for you to join up with. Our program uses the science of Analytical Trilogy elaborated by Brazilian psychoanalyst and social scientist Norberto Keppe to look at our world and explain it. It's a synthesis of the best ideas from philosophy, science, and even theology that gives us the capacity to explain.
So often we kind of give up trying to understand, don't we, because it all gets too complex. Well, Analytical Trilogy will help you, let me assure you. You know, we have this idea, I think, that we have a problem because of things that are external. I think if you read a lot of the activist literature, even watching great documentaries like Al Gore's documentary, The Inconvenient Truth, any of these kinds of things, we tend to see the problem as being an external problem.
A problem inside the the structures of society, or the laws, or the the corporate governance, this kind of thing, and not that the real problem is with the human being's attitude in relation to his society, in relation to the world. This is what we suffer from today. What did Pogo say? I have seen the enemy and he is us. Now, Keppe wrote a book called The Origin of Illness a number of years ago to show that what the human being has most difficulty with is precisely the problem of accepting goodness.
It's not a problem only of destruction. We don't accept the goodness that we have. So it's a much deeper philosophical question than this. At the beginning of Keppe's book, The Origin of Illness, he has a quote from Rochefoucauld, a French philosopher, who said, we need more virtue to accept prosperity than misfortune. You need to be more virtuous to accept goodness. That it's the human being who is creating the illness that we live in, not just the corporations, not just the powerful.
Certainly they are very deeply implicated in this, but this is a problem inside the human being. And why are we not able to diminish, even a little bit, the pollution of the air, the seas, the earth generally? Why are we unable to stop constructing devastating bombs, creating war and torture? Because of this problem of our inversion, Dr. Keppe has perceived this in all areas of human activity, and it's a very profound discovery, the discovery of inversion.
So I want to, before we get to Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco, I want to begin to talk a little bit about how we have created problems internally that create then problems in our physical health. Okay, so we'll be doing that first. I've invited Dr. Marcia Sgrinhelli, who is a trilogical psychosomatic dentist, to join us here at the beginning of the program to talk about how Keppe's discoveries in psychology have led us to create all sorts of health problems.
So we'll do that first, and then Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco joins us in the second part of our show. Marcy, in all of his work, Dr. Keppe is talking about the influence of our pathology on our health. He means our psychopathology. He also talks about the sociopathology, which is a result of the way human beings think and act in the world. So this pathology, these difficulties, problems we have with our megalomania, or our envy, or our aggression, or any kind of arrogance, anything like that, that we have, this has an enormous impact on our health and even on our DNA.
So I thought maybe we could start with that. What is the process that Dr Keppe is talking about here? How does this actually work from your perspective? Keppe
has been developing his work in psychosomatic medicine since 1960. He brought to us the comprehension of how our psychological life, our emotions, ideas, intentions, how everything works and is totally linked with our health or the illness that we have usually.
And so some research they show us this link that with our emotions and our hormonal and neuro hormonal system and And they show if a person is all the time angry or envious, this is a total link with our metabolic system. We can stop our metabolic system through these bad emotions.
Richard: Last night in our group analysis session, we had an example of what you're talking about.
A young man was talking about how he had seen his blood cells as seen through what they call a dark field microscope. What is this? What is a dark field microscope? It's a special microscope designed to see what?
This is a microscope where you can see the live blood. So you take a blood sample and you see all the cells that we have, but they are alive.
And this is very important because this test that we do here in our work with psychosomatic medicine, we can see the link between our emotions and the attitudes that the person has and what happens in our physical life. And so, this man that you were giving the example, he's an aggressive man and he lives in fantasies. And the red blood cells, they are totally deformed.
Because in young people, they have like a round red blood cell. And he had deformed, it's missing a part. So
Richard: this man who has had a lot of problems in his life with being aggressive, being arrogant, imposing himself, it was showing up in his blood cells, his red blood cells were showing a deformed shape. This is proving what for us? What is this showing us?
Show that our attitudes, our ideas, they make some changes in our bodies, totally linked. And so we can say that we feel and we think with all the cells in our body. And so it's a relation between what we think, what we feel, and what happens in our body.
Richard: Let me ask you a question. To go deeper into this then, what are the other physical effects that you are seeing?
Dr. Marci is working a lot with Dr. Cláudia and the psychosomatic clinic here at Dr. Keppe's clinic. What are the other actual physical effects that you're finding that occur in the body as a result of this aggression or this envy we might have, this inversion that Dr. Keppe has discovered? We
can give examples with people who have very bad emotions. The person is too depressed or wants to die, has feelings of death.
And this sends information for the cells of the body, and the person can develop diseases. Let's
Richard: talk about this in some smaller examples, because you work as a dentist. You must see this all the time, that in the person's mouth, it shows the effects of the psychopathology that the person has. Give some examples of that.
Yes, one very nice example that we can see is the saliva flow, because saliva is totally linked with our nervous system.
If the person stays angry all the time, angry about the reality, about consciousness, the mouth becomes very dry. And the person can have a lot of cavities, canker sores, and things like that. In the other hand if the person stays all the time with fear and panic situations, what's happened? We have a lot of saliva, the person can have a lot of saliva, but it's very diluted saliva, and there can appears a lot of calculus and tartars and inflammation the gums.
But in other hand, if the person is more one attitude of love and reason, and even the consciousness of the fear and the angry, because we are not perfect, we are not loving all the time, but only the consciousness of the fear and the angry makes the body and the salivation to become normal. We're
Richard: just finishing a new book now called The ABCs of the New Physics.
It's a study guide to understanding Dr. Keppe's work in the new physics because that book is way over our head for most of us who've never studied science. And in this book, Alexandre Frascari, who's been working with you in the psychosomatic clinic, says that in diseases that have a genetic component like diabetes, for example, it's common for them to manifest after the person has a very strong emotion, like when a close friend or family member dies.
This shows that our genes manifest through the energy that our feelings and thoughts put through our bodies. Boy, help us to understand that a bit more. That is very different from the way our medical profession sees these kinds of physical situations.
And so So through our DNA, they work like an antenna. They catch all the emotions, all the feelings that we feel, and all the energy from reality.
If we have bad emotions, bad thoughts, we make a pact with these bad energies.
Richard: A pact, like an agreement, you're saying. We make like an agreement with these negative energies. If we have negative thoughts ourselves? Yes,
it's like if we open a channel to bad energies in our body also. And when we do that, we deform all the good energy in our bodies.
And so we became sick. If we consciousness, because consciousness is the only thing that can bring you back to the good emotions because through consciousness we see why I'm angry, why I have these bad thoughts and bad intentions and intentions with my life why I want to die. So you see this, you can stop and you can have a connection with good energies again because it's the energy that forms everything, forms our body, forms our soul.
It's an energy that comes from God.
Richard: Beautifully said, Marcia. Truth and faith have been removed from science in the 20th century. That's the theme of our program. When we come back on the Positive World Radio Network, don't go away. The program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and we're here on the Positive World Radio Network. You know, we've just posted some very interesting stuff on our website.
I don't think I told you about this in the first segment of our program.
I found an old interview I did with Dr. Norberto Keppe five days after September 11th, if you can imagine that. This was like a rare opportunity to sit down with him and get his perspectives on terrorism, what's going on, how the United States should begin to look at this situation.
It was really fascinating. We've just posted that video on our heating through consciousness site, so there's some very good information for you on that site. And Cláudia is joining me again today, and I want to continue a little bit our uh dialogue about what's happening in the world, especially as it relates to the faulty psychology that we see in people. And people don't seem to have any idea of what's going on in situations like this.
And
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: you know why, Richard? Because all everything that you read and know in this planet is imposed by the powerful. Yeah, the powerful institutions. And you see all these organizations, these foundations allegedly organized and founded to help humanity and to be working on humanitarian purposes, they are indeed hiding other intentions. And most of them are not that good. So we see that, for instance, American Psychological Association, they dictate the norms of all universities or faculties of psychology, schools of psychology, at least in the Western world.
And lately, also, they introduced themselves in the Eastern countries. So they took to those Eastern countries their own interests. And what do they propose in the chart, or I don't know this word in English, the agenda of the
Richard: disciplines to be taught, the bibliography, the authors, the schools of psychotherapy. Within the curriculum of the universities. Yes, the curriculum of the universities and the
Cláudia: psychology faculties, psychologies like schools.
So all of these are determined, are orientations dictated by the American Psychological Association mostly. And all these magazines, these publishing houses, They are all committed to the economic powerful. And we see lately the enormous influence of the pharmaceutical companies, also in psychology, also in psychiatry. It's obvious. But also in psychology. So they determine what the psychologist must do, how they must behave,
Richard: what are the concepts they must follow.
And they are like all blindados. Yeah, they're blind. They're like
Cláudia: guarded, protected. No, blindaging is like when you have some, like an iron covered. Yeah,
Richard: you're like protected or surrounded by this...
Cláudia: Yes, all closed up.
Richard: Yeah, bulletproof.
Cláudia: Yeah. So with all these concepts and the schools like rational, emotive therapies, and not also this, but cognitive therapies, behavioral therapies. And most of all, when the person manifests any symptom of anxiety, panic, or whatever, they must be taken to psychiatrists so they can prescribe medicines.
So the true psychology, or the true psychoanalysis, that should be the study of the psyche of the person. And psyche means soul. Psyche in Greek is a Greek word, and in Greek must be translated as soul. So a psychology that treats the soul of the individual have gone or have never existed. Yeah, never existed. We see Keppe doing this in his school of psychotherapy.
Some tried to do this, and they succeeded in many ways to go ahead. Like, you know, every student of psychology must... No. Professor Karl Jaspers, which is a genius, the biggest genius of, like, in all history of psychopathology. He was a doctor and he was a philosopher.
Richard: From Austria. Germany, Austria,
Cláudia: Germany. German. And Karl Jaspers, he wrote the best compendium of psychopathology.
And you know what did he say about the orientation that psychology, the present psychology and psychoanalysis led to? And he said, I'm going to try to translate here, I have in my book, Alienating Psychotherapies, that I wrote in Portuguese some
years ago, where I analyzed and I focused
Richard: the inversions and the mistakes, the misleadings that Freud caused with his psychoanalysis. Especially Freud, right?
Yeah,
Cláudia: Freud, Melanie Klein, and others. But here I'm reading a chapter that I treat Freud. And I put this Carl Jaspers quote. He said, Some psychologies and sociologies have performed perversions in society. They were perverted. Pervert.
Richard: Yeah, perverted. Perverted. I'm listening intently
Cláudia: because... And they say, they exert, they influence, they exert devastating power in our times. Yeah. And he quotes
Richard: more than any others, two thinkers, Marx in the field of sociology and Freud in the field of psychology.
As being responsible for this.
Cláudia: Elaborated with an enormous power of observation and construction. So they were very intelligent and
Richard: very methodical
Cláudia: in his sciences. Besides a few concepts that were right, they constructed falsest concepts that were catastrophics. Wow. Yeah. This was written by Jaspers.
Richard: Well, when did he... He was in the early part of the 20th century, I'm assuming.
Cláudia: And not too early, no.
Not too early. Mid part
Richard: of the 20th century. Okay. And what were these?
Cláudia: And he says here that they tried to eliminate faith and truth because they are unaccessible as empirical objects of investigation. Faith and...
Richard: And truth. And truth. You can't empirically know them, so they have to be excluded from the study of psychology, from human
Cláudia: experience. Yeah. Incredible. So, according to this, these two elements were destroyed by Marx and Freud.
Richard: Well, that's pretty serious.
Cláudia: Faith and truth.
Richard: That's very serious.
Cláudia: And he says here, this way of thinking is very dangerous for man, for mankind. And it brings a totalitarian kind of philosophy, a conception, totalitarian of our species. And it leads us to disappear as human beings amongst clichés created by a superstitious science. Wow. And he finishes his comment saying, if we adopt Freudism and Marxism, we will be torn apart from ourselves.
We
Richard: won't have any contact with who we are. We will be torn apart from ourselves.
Cláudia: Arrancados. Yeah, exactly this, torn apart from ourselves. So I found
Richard: this comment so beautiful, and I put it in the introduction of this chapter of Freudian psychoanalysis in my book, Alienating Psychotherapies. Which there's a little section of, I believe, I'm not sure it's yours, Cláudia, in this book, from Sigmund
Cláudia: Freud to Viktor Frankl, Integral
Richard: Psychoanalysis.
There's a little, some excerpts in here. And that book is in English, by the way, so that's
Cláudia: available. And there might be anybody who's really interested in psychology. This is a beautiful book, isn't it?
Richard: Very scientific, by the
Cláudia: way, very scientific. This is
Richard: the book when I first came to Brazil that really impressed me, because it's a kind of a an overview of Dr Keppe's science.
And in this book he talks about how we have not had a process of psychotherapy, we've had biology, we've had socio factors, biology, organic, physical things,
Cláudia: but nothing really to look at the psyche of the human being, the inner life of the human being. And you you can see Jones like American Psychological Association adopting all this kind of theories, and they introduced in American, North American, and in general in western civilization, uh these concepts of Freud, Freudian concepts, in education, psychology, psychiatry, and and many other areas, human areas, humanistic sociology
Richard: for sure.
But but how, let's just in our, we have a few minutes here, of faith and truth have been torn away from us. In practical terms, what does this mean? How do you see this practically? Well,
Cláudia: Freud and Marx were totally materialistic scientists, they were totally materialistic. Marx considered religion as the opium of the people. We could name or we could say that institutional religious people, they lead others to be alienated, having a superstitious idea about God.
This can be said, but not faith in itself. Faith is the basis of knowledge. And so this is one thing you believe before
Richard: you know, in many cases for
Cláudia: sure. This is a way of knowing things. You must believe first and then you prove it out
Richard: later through experimentation.
Cláudia: This is very scientific. Yeah. And truth, the the concept of truth being relative or being inexistent, the I I have my truth, you have your truth, it's only a matter of perspective of life.
So you have your own perspective, I have my perspective, you have your own paradigm and I have my paradigm. Yeah, so this is all
Richard: confusing minds. So and very simply I say that if truth would not exist, lying would not exist either. Yeah, right. And nobody and everybody knows that what a lie is and what
Cláudia: lying is. So this is absolutely infantile to say that you cannot.
But
Richard: even more, it's dangerous, as you said at the
Cláudia: beginning, as Jasper said, totally dangerous, because denying the truth, denying the truth one knows, is the cause, the main cause of psychosis. So this is very dangerous, this is really dangerous. We walked down a
Richard: very dangerous path when we do that.
Cláudia: So the results are here. After this orientation, the Freudian orientation in education, you see the results.
What parents don't know how to to whether to
Richard: punish, whether to how to orient their
Cláudia: children, to raise up children anymore, they don't know how to tell how to behave like parents. Teachers are afraid of their students, they are all tied up by this crazy behavior of the students. So we see
Richard: sickness, pathology, taking power over sanity in society. Everything is becoming more and more upside down, more and more upside down.
Yeah, this idea of taking away the idea of faith, truth, reason. We don't have reason if we don't have faith and truth, of course. Truth is you need to have a reasonable attitude. You need to have an idea of what the truth is. You can't be floating all over the place. It's very important. In
Cláudia: powerful institutions, Jones, they don't want people that have the capacity to think, to reflect, to be critical.
So they want slaves. They want people who don't think. They want people just obeying for their own interests. Powerful people want their profits and their power, nothing more.
Richard: So they've used this orientation from Freud and Marx to great effect to control us and to create mayhem.
Cláudia: And you see all dictatorships. They don't let even people knowing about psychoanalysis anymore, because even though psychoanalysis was misled by the Freudian
Richard: theories, it had an important role to teach people about their inner life, that they started to think about things.
Alienating psychotherapies. You might think, well, I don't do psychotherapy. This has no impact on me. It has an enormous impact on our society. We'll come back and discuss that a little bit more in just a moment. The program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head Richard Lloyd Jones, Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco. We are back in just a moment. I don't even like pausing when we have these kind of discussions, Cláudia.
So we're back. It's the Thinking with Somebody Else's Head radio program on the Positive World Radio Network. Very happy to be there. They're doing very good things on this network. If you check them out at pwrnradio.com you're going to find lots of very... Interesting discussions and conversations for you to follow. And all of our archives are there. And I really think that what we're doing through Dr.
Cláudia Pacheco's incredible understanding of Dr. Keppe's work is something that's really, really necessary in the world today. So we were talking about how the powerful sort of manipulate us with these Freudian, even, although we're, you know, in North America we don't think of ourselves as Marxist, yeah these ideas, this relativism that he introduced has really impacted us enormously. So we have for example my brother is a school teacher in Canada, teaches biology, and the the latest he's been telling me the latest techniques for teaching kids, you put them in a room with an experiment, for example in biology, and you give them all the resources to do their own research and arrive at their own conclusions.
And this sounds like a wonderful experience, and I'm sure for kids they learn to think and to arrive at conclusions without being told what the answer is. The problem is, what's the starting place? Where are we starting from? If we don't have a basis of philosophy, theology, a true, real basis of faith and truth, reason, what conclusion do we arrive at? You can arrive at any conclusion.
Cláudia: Yeah, anyone. Anyone. Like, for instance, Jones, if you observe better the situation in North America, what we see there is a kind of Marxist capitalism or Marxist neoliberalism. Because when Russia was under the Marxist banner system, what did they have? A poor country that was deprived by their freedom and their rights in order to produce weapons and to give profits for these enormously rich, hidden, powerful individuals that kept having all the profits out of the gold mines and diamonds and all these productions in Russia.
So there was this heavy pact amongst political and economic powerful in a way that they didn't even know that there were still rich, powerful individuals owing their minds and their means of production.
Richard: Owning, controlling.
Cláudia: Controlling and having profits. So the political power was absolutely engaged with these hidden powerful people that were there during all the time, all the years of this Marxist system.
So they banned God and they banned all the thinkers, the true thinkers from their culture. They rejected all those who were traditionally like their idols, their heroes, their examples of true Russian people, of their culture.
Richard: Their poets, their philosophers. Yes. All these
Cláudia: great cinematographers, filmmakers. All of them were eliminated in order to have this mass of slaves deprived from the freedom of thinking, seeing the West and any other country beyond their boundaries, their borders as enemies and a threat to their freedom.
So all this brainwashing going on with them, we see something similar happening now in North America, where they cannot see any more Russians there as a threat, but they produced an image of terrorists coming from the Middle East, or these Muslim, Islamic people.
Richard: Extreme Muslims, yeah. So
Cláudia: they can take away the freedom of American people.
Richard: They're using this to take away liberties, rights.
Yeah, this is very clear. The Patriots Act
Cláudia: is... This is absolutely clear. It's very clear. All the media is owned by the major powerful economic people that are not really interested in
Richard: nothing that is about the
Cláudia: people. They are only interested in their own interests. All the medias are owned by this mega conglomerate...
Richard: Coterie of six or seven companies.
Cláudia: Yeah, like these clusters of powerful people.
A
Richard: clan.
Cláudia: So who owns one major pharmaceutical company? They own also a cigarette company, and
Richard: they own medias, and they own everything. So there are this huge conglomerate. Our friend Susan Berkley talks a lot about this, how the same people are on the same boards of directors for all of these companies, 300
Cláudia: people. So what they say in the medias are all prepared.
By the top of this publishing or these media companies in order to preserve, to keep people not thinking. And they create, they make up stories so people believe in them, so they keep not seeing in the powerful their biggest enemies. The inner powerful, I mean the people inside their countries as their bigger biggest enemies, but uh ghosts that they don't know where they are, that are hidden for years and years, and then they die, they are assassinated, and they don't know how, they don't see even the corpse, and and if they see some corpse they don't know if this corpse is real or not.
So it's everything uncertain. We live in a in a time where everything is became uncertain. You cannot say for sure what is happening. You've
Richard: made an amazing parallel here, Cláudia, between the oppression, suppression that happened in the communist Soviet Union
Cláudia: and
Richard: what's happening in the Western world
Cláudia: today. Taking away Christianity and the true religions from everywhere.
Richard: Well, taking
Cláudia: out truth, as you said.
A country that was built with a currency written, in God we believe. I'm glad we trust. We trust. So how come God is taking away from every public and institutional and even homes? Because what comes inside their homes through books, magazines, internet and medias and TV and movies are nothing, are nothing related to truth, ethics, faith and the real true values that build up that nation.
Those nations like United States and Canada for instance, or even
Richard: England, or even
Cláudia: any other country in the western
Richard: world, the same thing is happening in China today of course. But you know you said something that really struck me, this fabrication of outside enemies. This takes us away from the true problems. We don't see the true problems now because we're focused outside.
And this is very directly coming from our psychological view, isn't it? We're taught to see the problem externally, not to see the problem, to
Cláudia: project. And even if it's
Richard: internal, it's like a brain chemical or a hormonal thing, you know, it's not like anything to do with the way we see life, the way we
Cláudia: think. When Freud went to United States for the first time bringing psychoanalysis, Jung joked with him and said we are bringing the pest, if the plague.
Yeah, we're bringing the plague.
Richard: If Americans would know that we are bringing them the plague, they would not have invited us, they'd go running from the room, screaming from the room.
Cláudia: Yeah, and that's what happened. They brought the plague, because the plague they brought is the destruction of any cultural, social, theological, value, idealistic, civilizational values. They they turned out, they turned down all these values when they brought every importance for the life of the person into the sexual life, into this, the accomplishment of desires.
So they reduced us to a bunch of instincts. By the way, there is nothing wrong with our instincts if they are natural, if they are not distorted. We have natural instincts, even sexual natural instincts, that are designed to perpetuate life and also to bring love and affection. When when this happens, but what led humanity to deviate so much from this balanced way of seeing sexual life, relationships, and and even worse, the way people see culture and and ethical values, what distorted and what misled people was mostly psychoanalysis in the beginning.
Now people don't even do psychoanalysis any longer, but the wrong concepts were kept and were enlarged in in the mistake, in in the sense of being an erroneous, erroneous concepts grew so much that you cannot say no to a child and not have You're
Richard: traumatizing him for life.
Cláudia: And being traumatized by his reaction. Because if you say a no to a child or to a young person, you get traumatized with the response you are going to have.
That's
Richard: right. In some cases, now they kill. Yes. Yeah, it's very serious.
Cláudia: And you cannot even defend yourself in some instances, because then people will say that you are abusing, attacking, you are... And this comes
Richard: from the Freudian idea of liberating the
Cláudia: feelings.
Richard: The unconscious and the desires and the needs, the unconscious needs.
So if you want to have an integrated personality and a preserved personality, you cannot follow any values that come from outside of you.
You have to decide what is good or bad to you. And you have to follow your desires.
Cláudia: You know what, Jones? When
you think about this, I remember the
Cláudia: Satanic Bible of Anton LaVey in the 60s. By the way, 1966 was the year that he founded his Satanic Cathedral or Satanic Church in California. And the testament or the ten commandments he wrote of the satanic bible were like all
Richard: the
Cláudia: opposite right of the it's the name starts with the name is the will and the importance of the will and the use of the will.
So whatever you wish and you want must be fulfilled. This is a like a commandment.
Richard: And anyone who tries to prevent you from fulfilling your will they must be stopped to you and you can
Cláudia: use any means to yes even kill them. Yeah you have the right to kill them
Richard: because they're trying to prevent you from liberating the truth of yourself. Yeah which is your
Cláudia: will.
It would be very good if it would be really the truth but we are upside down. We have a this is the major discovery Keppe made in psychoanalysis. We have our will upside down distorted. We have a flaw in our will. We everything we wish to us is upside down is inverted. It's it's evil. Everything that is evil we feel attracted to.
So if we do whatever we want to do we're we can kill ourselves in a week or you know in a day because everything we are attracted to is against our nature. This is
Richard: something that's not well known. This is not well
Cláudia: understood at all that we have bad intentions and you can see this. It says we're analyzing. Bad intentions and bad desires, too.
And bad desires. And bad, like our will distorted even our instincts.
Richard: Yeah. So we have this, we don't see this. Well, when we're analyzing what's going on in society, we don't see that there are intentions behind it. We just think, well, that was a mistake or that was a little bit of an extreme position. Maybe we need to control that a bit more.
We don't see.
Cláudia: It's a result of the environment. It's the family problem, parents. So always blaming other people. For what we have, and this is a crime. This is a huge crime, because many children, they attack and they blame their parents. They did the best they could for their children. So if you let a person, if you allow a person to do everything he wants, these impulses, these desires, he will end up in a severe, catastrophic situation.
We see many artists being an example of this, being drugged, being destroyed in their early ages.
Richard: Yeah, wanting to explore the extremes of their feelings. This was very clear in the movie about Jim Morrison. You could see that he took this, like the desire he had, he wanted to take it as far as he could go, thinking that he would get something good out of that.
Cláudia: Everything that is forbidden is spicy, is desirable. Forbidden fruit. Yeah, forbidden fruit. So if you can't smoke, you're going to smoke. If you can't drink drugs, you're feeling attracted to drugs. If alcohol is harmful, you feel attracted to alcohol. If eating too much makes bad for your health, you're going to eat, eat, eat up when you explode.
Richard: Like a pig.
Cláudia: Like a pig.
And everything, like betraying your husband or your wife is wrong. So this is what attracts you the most. So we are all upside down and with no exceptions no exceptions. We have a flaw in our nature and
Richard: worse we don't have any understanding of it. Let's come back and talk a little bit more about this. Have you got a bit more time to be with us today.
Yeah i
Cláudia: have i have 10 minutes. Oh
Richard: very good okay so we're back in just a moment. I'm Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network with dr Cláudia harper shaker. We're looking at alienating psychotherapy. And as I said, I think a little earlier, we have this idea that maybe psychotherapy doesn't impact as much because we don't do psychotherapy.
But let me assure you, these ideas that we're talking about have infiltrated our society in a big way, especially this one that Cláudia was talking about at the end of our segment there, about the will, this idea that we are free and that we need to give free expression to the will, to who we are. And this has caused enormous problems inside our society, Cláudia.
Cláudia: And this is being brought into the laws of the countries. And this is very dangerous. Because if you need to... I'm not saying here that we should beat up our children. We should discipline them as the early intransigent, rigid religious people did to their children, beating them up. Locking them in
Richard: rooms this is
Cláudia: absolutely sick. But on the other hand if you touch a child that is screaming and being so indisciplined and so nasty and so destructive that they can't even stop themselves of destroying their own things and their own bodies and lives sometimes we need to shake up someone to say hey stop.
Otherwise, you're going to start destroying other people's freedoms and rights, not only yours. So when we need to stop them, if you have to follow the most modern kind of laws, you risk yourself of being put in jail or caught up by some law. So people are really afraid to educate children and youngsters presently orient them to give them to orient them yeah because
Richard: if you if they attack you you cannot you cannot fight back even yeah so
Cláudia: it's crazy the situation that they created.
We have this
Richard: inverted will and we don't understand it well but i i want to come to something else Cláudia that i think is really um fundamental for for we to understand in our western world. We've had this orientation of psychotherapy psychology that you have to build the confidence of people you have to build their self-esteem you have to their
Cláudia: megalomania their arrogance.
This is what we build this is what we build because the the problem in in a person is the megalomania is arrogant since they are young children. They know it all, always. They know better than their parents, than their teachers, than anybody else. So what do we have? People, like, listen to them. They end up by teaching adults.
Richard: Exactly. Dr. Keppe said in a book I've been working on, we're working on revising work and capital, which is a phenomenal book of Dr.
Keppe, because it's not just about economics and work. It's about philosophy. Too. It's a, I think Gilbert Gambucci, one of our friends said one time, Dr. Keppe told him that in this book, Work and Capital, Dr. Keppe put every idea he had at the moment, he just put it all in that book. And he, he dealt with something here in a chapter I was working on where he said this, Cláudia, he said, the more errors and the less virtues the individual sees in himself, the more normal he is.
The more errors and the less virtues he sees the more normal is and the more strengths and fewer defects he sees the sicker he is. Yeah now how do you put that into our modern psychology that is completely different from
Cláudia: our. I would like to quote some of the teachings of Melanie Klein, this famous psychoanalyst, because she dealt a lot of a lot with children, yes. And what did she say? That if one allow a child to be destructive, and this has a lot to do with this modern idea that you have to release your emotions. When I first went to United States, to New York City, to work this kind of philosophy or psychotherapy.
It was really in...
Richard: It was in the apogee. It was at
Cláudia: the top there, yeah. Yeah. Everybody wanted to express their emotions, to...
Richard: Yeah. Get it out.
Cláudia: Get it out. You can't keep it
Richard: in. Hit the dolls inside the therapist's office, right? Bat pillows with tennis rackets.
Cláudia: Scream. When you desire. Primal scream
Richard: therapy. Primal scream
Cláudia: therapy. So screaming, screaming. So everybody can have a heart attack in a moment of emotion.
It's so known.
Richard: Yeah, sure.
Cláudia: And AVC? Moavice, we say in Portuguese. Cardiovascular disease.
Richard: Yeah, cardiovascular disease.
Cláudia: C-V-A. C-V-A.
Richard: Cardiovascular. Accident or
Cláudia: something. Where the heart stops in this moment
Richard: of intense emotion, your heart can't take it.
Cláudia: Can't take it, high blood pressure and many other problems that you have because of emotional attacks of anger, for instance, or screaming or depression or manifesting emotions is not healthy.
Because when we allow emotions to take us over, we produce some substances, chemical substances or hormonal substances in our body that really can break up our homeostatic balance. And also, as I mentioned Melanie Klein, she said that if a child is allowed to cross a border of balanced behavior, Go too
Richard: far.
Cláudia: Yeah. If they go too far, if they attack, if they manifest too much aggressiveness, destructiveness, even though they cannot stop them because they can't control themselves and they are not sometimes aware of what is happening.
But they have inside of themselves deep feelings of guilt for what they did. And if you don't stop them in what they do, they will manifest so much destruction that they will have enormous feelings of guilt. And you know how they are going to...
Richard: Assuage this guilt?
Cláudia: Like restore their... Their balance? Their ethical balance. Como que eles vão recuperar? How are
Richard: they going to recover themselves, recover this balance that they lost in this emotional outburst?
So
Cláudia: they are going to inflict unconscious penalties, like becoming sick, having accidents, performing acts to punish themselves for the unconscious guilt they have. So it's cruelty to allow children to do things to manifest their emotional unbalance, destructive unbalance and not stop them because that manifestation will bring enormous feelings of guilt that the child will not be able to cope with. And will become sick, will become mentally unbalanced and will provoke penalties, irrational penalties
Richard: against themselves.
And maybe against their family too, because if they're damaging themselves, they're going to hurt their family as well. As
Cláudia: a consequence. As a consequence.
Richard: Incredible. So this idea of celebrating the death of Bin Laden, expressing ourselves, this
Cláudia: is... No, this is like very, very superstitious because they, and naivety, it's a mixture of naivety, primitivism, ingenuity, because they think, really they think that their enemy is Bin Laden and not that their true enemy.
Or first of all, their own alienation, their own unconsciousness. And second, the powerful people that are controlling our society and bringing so much suffering, restriction, difficulties in our everyday life that everybody already take this for granted or like as common as everyday life, as necessary, as unavoidable. And not that this is a plan that could and should be changed.
Richard: What do we do with our kids then, Cláudia, coming back to that in our last few minutes here?
What do we do with our kids if they're showing these tantrums, willfulness, these terrible twos, we say. Sometimes kids can have that for a long time. What can parents do here, teachers?
Cláudia: First thing, we cannot correct them with anger. We cannot fight them, we cannot correct them with anger. We cannot also expect from ourselves total neutrality, because this is also an idealization, but we should try to act out of love and show the child that that action is destroying them, is causing pain and suffering and inflicting damage
Richard: to
Cláudia: themselves.
If they think they are attacking and they are fighting their parents or anything else, they are not. They are fighting and destroying themselves without acknowledging because any actions jones we do that take us away from love from inner peace from harmony from beautiful feelings and goodness. Everything that takes us away from this beautiful, energetic, divine world is a destruction to adults or to children.
So we should try to orient them to that and teach them that manifesting anger, revolt, revenge, if they start attacking themselves or other people, they are destroying their essence. So they cannot be happy. They cannot grow and flourish normally if they follow this philosophy.
Richard: Dr. Keppe said that when an individual does good, when he's kind to others, when he does good, he enters a transcendental dimension because his essence lives more there than here.
Cláudia: It's like passing from or walking from hell to heaven, to paradise. And this inner paradise is the gate to the external paradise, to the outer paradise that we have to build. This is our planet. It belongs to us.
Richard: Yes, our world. Indeed it is, Cláudia. I was thinking as you were speaking about the need to orient our children, something came to me recently from, it may have been Oprah's website, somebody, I'm not sure who the author was, woman I think, a woman psychologist maybe, talking about the need for experiencing rage, for not blocking the healthy flow of anger through our lives, that anger has a need and a purpose.
And boy, in Dr. Keppe's psychology, we would really be able to critique that seriously because expressing our anger does not help us to resolve it. In fact, it makes it worse. People can have heart attacks from expressing their anger, from exploding. So this idea that anger is a useful energy, I think this is something to pay attention to. Obviously, the anger is showing us something.
And in Keppe's Analytical Trilogy, Psychology, we would need to see the reason for that anger. And not try to just subvert it or even express it, try to understand it better, what's going on here. Because this is not part of our natural state, our essence. That's not part of who we are. The essence of the human being is goodness, truth, and beauty.
And anything other than that is the corruption of those things. So then I started thinking about Keppe's code of ethics, how we could be better in the world. And these are some social things that I think, coming from Keppe's work, that would be really, really important to see. What about this? If every human being had food, housing, and clothing free. That's one of the laws Keppe would like to institute.
Nobody has the right to exploit others. Taking interest charging interest was is and always will be immoral not helping the person Next to you is profoundly immoral. Living on the backs of others is a lack of character. Not speaking the truth for the other people is a way to feed monsters. Thinking deliriously is something really, really crazy. So these are things that we can do in our own practical lives to help make a difference, to help bring this better society Cláudia was talking about.
It's wonderful to have you with us as always on the Positive World Radio Network. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head returns next time. Until then, Richard Lloyd Jones, bye-bye for now.
