Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones and welcome to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Great to be with you today. We're coming to you from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo, Brazil. We're a radio program that tries to encourage thinking, of course, but thinking that's coherent and linked to reality. There's lots of intelligence today that's used in really rotten ways, it seems to me.
That's not the kind of thinking we mean. The basis of our show is some pretty incredible research in psychology with application in all manner of human activity. Norberto Keppe is the scientist who's connected the dots from the great philosophers, theologians, and psychological forefathers to complete the map of the human psyche. And with that, give us a completed picture of what's going on, both in ourselves and in the larger human society of which we're a part.
No small accomplishment. In putting the finger on the roots of our problems, Keppe talks over and over of primary sources of our difficulties. And he talks much of our corruption of our original state. We'll go deep into that today. Corruption. It's not just out there anymore. Our topic today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Corruption. Some government official with his hand out or a doctor accepting an all-expenses-paid fishing trip in exchange for promoting new pharmaceuticals or a baseball player betting on his own team.
It's part of doing business in some countries and whispers of it are always present wherever big events like the Olympics or the World Cup are held. There are movies galore about this theme, from Erin Brockovich to All the President's Men, maybe even to the Facebook story. And perhaps we've become accustomed to seeing corruption as the province of the scummier among us, like Bernie Madoff or the Enron guys.
Of course, why there was such a line outside Madoff's office of social elites and charitable organizations is seldom discussed because we are in the habit of seeing corruption in these big scandals rather than in our day-to-day lives. Well, we do need to point those fingers inside a little more, which is what we'll do today. Of course, we'll also include a healthy dose of investigation into the corruption in the power structures as well, so all in all, it should be quite a ride today.
Clearly, we need to see the role of the power structure in creating a world where it's more and more difficult to live well. I'm saying this in reflection, actually, personally, of the riots in Vancouver a week or so ago, a city I have a great deal of affection for. I lived there for over 11 years. Following the loss by the Canucks in Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals to the Boston Bruins.
Rather easy, I think, to lay the blame on a few thugs and miscreants and a small number of wayward youth who somehow got caught up in the destruction in a brief moment of insanity. That's the story being passed. But what about the world these young people are growing up in? This corruption of farming, many of the jobs off to the sweatshops of India and China, the massive drugging of schoolchildren with Ritalin and Prozac and vaccines, the funding of war after war, the refusal of corporations to see past their short-term profit-seeking noses and stop polluting and producing megatons of toxic sludge.
Good heavens. What passes for the social policy elite in North America is still considering nuclear energy as an answer to shortages and genetically modified organisms as a solution to food production problems. In considering corruption, Dr. Keppe says that he needs to make people aware that "for the most part we act according to bad feelings which are hidden in our inconscientized minds, and that this behavior has nothing to do with reason, which actually exerts little influence on mankind," and that "corruption is desirable," Keppe says, "because it gives free reign to all the bad feelings which want to manifest themselves."
So we see that in Vancouver, you know, these kids full of bad feelings already, who suddenly have an excuse to explode, and that's exactly what they do. But Keppe says also that, of course, it's the powerful, the socially powerful, who are the most dangerous, because in this case, when somebody has power, everything changes, and a single human being can incinerate the world.
So we must diminish this type of power. Well, we have a lot to talk about in our program today, and we'll get to that with Cláudia of Bernhard Pacheco, a fascinating discussion in a few moments. But I wanted to bring in my man on the beat, Gilbert Gambucci, to talk a little bit about a seminal book Norberto Keppe produced back in the 1980s called The Decay of the American People and of the United States.
Let's get to that discussion first. Gilbert, I was having a look at this book, Decay of the American People, and in our radio program last week, we were talking a little bit about corruption. So I thought maybe, well, actually, we're talking a lot about corruption. So I thought maybe this would be a good book for us to consider in our program. I don't think you and I have ever done a program on this book specifically.
So in this book, The Decay of the American People and of the United States, Dr. Keppe is pretty clear about the complete disintegration that he's seeing throughout North America, and maybe even of something irrecoverable. How do you see all this in light of our situation today? Is this still true? This
Gilbert Gambucci: book is fundamental, Rich. Yes, it's still true. In fact, with just a few adjustments of some statistics, it's as though this book were written for right now, and actually was written during Reagan's time.
Dr. Keppe wrote it in New York in 84 or 85 it came out, and during the Reaganomics. And it's kind of amazing how Keppe perceived right at that time how Reaganomics is leading the country into decay. And how so? Because it seems that Reaganomics solved the problem that the United States was having with its economy at that time. And uh and dr Keppe he differentiates between economy and finances.
Most people don't do that, you know. Real economy is the industry of a nation, it's agriculture, it's workforce, and even commercial trade, even finances, serious commercial trade, you know, all of this comprises the economy. Finances are setting prices and this type of thing. It's different from economy. What can't be noticed in the 80s with Reaganomics was that, to put it simply Rich, people began to stop working and more and more people began speculating on the stock market, making money through the stock market.
Wrong with that, you might ask, you know. And not only the high financers, uh, the industrialists and the deregulation of the financial system that was taking place in a in a very strong way at that time, but also people in general, anybody who had money started betting more and more on the stock market. And what happens here is that there's a question, a psychological question, that which that people don't perceive, you know, when you're taking money without giving a service, you know, we get to the question of action, of doing a service for people, you know.
It's kind of interesting because the founding fathers of our nation, they talked a lot about morals, that is to say ethics, you know, working with ethics, because if you work without ethics, then you're a thief. You're dishonest. You're someone who steals. And making money on the stock market, I don't know if people have ever considered this, it's immoral to take money without giving a service for that money in return.
It's what a thief does, essentially, except in the stock market, it's legal. I mean, you can do that if you like, but you're corrupting your psychological life, and it's not just a christian judaic orientation that we should be ethical, we should be honest, but it's even a question of being the structure of the human being inside, you know. He's made for good action, and in fact in ontology, in kepian ontology, metaphysics, that is the study of being, he sees the essence of being as good action, you know.
And of course we are feeling, we are intellect as well, but principally we are action. And so if you are getting money without putting your being into action, good action, that is to say doing some kind of a service for others, helping other people with your profession or with whatever it is that you're doing. If you're not acting, or if what you do is in benefit of no one, then you're corrupting yourself.
In this
Richard: book, Gilbert, he says something very interesting. He says that the cause of American decay is actually not economic, but psychological. That first the human mind distorts, omits, denies, corrupts, and then society deteriorates materially as well as spiritually. So the sort of economic material decadence occurs after... The psychological-spiritual decadence.
Gilbert: They start to lose their intelligence. They lose their enthusiasm because the being of the human being is meant to be an action.
Good action, of course, not an evil act. And so if you're not in good action, it's impossible, or almost impossible, I don't know, to show people who are making money on the stock market that you're corrupting your essence. They don't want to know about it. They They don't see it. And
Richard: also, you know, there's been a lot of documentaries and things made recently.
Michael Moore, a guy named Charlie, I forget Charles's last name, the fellow who made the documentary Inside Job. They've been showing for some time now that there's a lot of corruption going on inside our financial system. Yes.
Gilbert: And even in these films, which are very, very well documented, in my opinion, they show mostly the financial world and the economy. And because people are just focused on that, as though there's no other problem.
But in Dr. Keppe's book, we call it the decay book. And in fact, I remember when he selected that word decay, because we were considering, should it be called the decline of the United States? And Keppe was saying, no, decline, it gives the impression of something that can come back up. It just went down a little bit, so it comes back up.
And in fact, until today, they want to give us that impression. Oh, we need to kickstart the economy. You know, these stupid kind of expressions. But he said, no, the word has to be decay because what's happening is the essence of the American society is undergoing a disturbance. And so that has to be rebuilt. It can't just suddenly it swings back up again.
Richard: In this book, Keppe, just a quote from this book, he says, As a result of its moral decay, America has gone from an industrial phase to a commercial one, transforming itself into a nation of wheeler-dealers, because they believe that making money simply by buying and selling is easier than producing necessary products and services. So here's this avoidance of real true action you're talking about, isn't it?
Yes.
Gilbert: And, you know, people should know that consciousness of this problem is the best. It's the solution. Normally, people are kind of afraid of consciousness, afraid of seeing what's really going wrong here. What's the analysis really? People don't, they're afraid of that. But consciousness of the problem is good. And in this book, Dr. Keppe, he shows not only the decay in economy and finance, but also what's really happening in our agriculture situation, the decay in agriculture, decay in industry that we've been undergoing, decay in work, you know, how people don't work well anymore, decay in business, really, decay in youth.
There's there are you know several aspects of analysis, political decay, decay in education, psychological decay, aesthetics, you know. People all over the world, you and i we live here in brazil rich, and so we we know that people all over the world, they comment how americans visually have become ugly, when in the past they used to be so elegant, beautiful looking people, and they're not anymore.
And so there's a reason for that. And here in this book, we have a decay in aesthetics that's being analyzed, decay in religion, that is to say our spirituality. You know, if you're making money without giving a service to people, where is your spirituality if you're not giving to humanity? This is what we are meant to do. This is why we are here on the earth.
You know, We've been commanded to take care of the garden. The garden is our society. We need to give to our society. We need to help it. Even though there are many things in it that are wrong, we have to like our society and help people and see where we can benefit people and improve
Richard: the society. What a concept, Gilbert. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network returns in just a moment.
Don't go away. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head that we're on the Positive World Radio Network. My name is Richard Lloyd Jones. I should let you know we have a Facebook page now. We're becoming super high-tech. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. All sorts of ways for you to get in touch with us. You can just go into Facebook and look for Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
You'll find our page there. It'd be great to have you joining us.
Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco is with me again, of course, as usual, our usual experience, recording here in our studio, which is very nice. We have a world situation, Cláudia. Wow. Just a mess. Everything is a mess. Everywhere we see problems. I was reading about the annual Bilderberg meeting.
Really? Concluded a few days ago in Samoritz, Switzerland. This year, the British Chancellor of the Exchequer was there. President of the European Central Bank, the head of Canada's Central Bank, the queens of the Netherlands and Spain, crown prince of Norway, representative of the Rothschild banking empire, Rockefeller was there, finance ministers, heads of state, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, the Facebook guy, executive chairman of Google, the commander of the American military's cyber command.
And what is a Google guy
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: doing with the queens and the bankers, the biggest corrupts of humanity altogether? What do they do besides drinking and eating and chatting? What do you think they do, Richard?
Richard: Do you think they're trying to plan our future in some evil, malevolent
Cláudia: way? The only consolation I have about them, you know, about their future, not only their future, but their present, their present life as well, is when I read Dr.
Keppe's book, Liberation Through Knowledge, The Age of Reason, where Dr. Keppe goes, scientifically explores in depth corruption. And this is the only consolation I have. And, you know, we must go also try to go deeper with our listeners today so they may understand a little bit about social, economic, political corruption, but also psychological corruption, which is the very source of this problem.
Never, ever someone explain the link between this inner act of corrupting, being a psychological problem and present in all human beings, by the way.
Richard: Let me just follow on that point because we had an email today from one of our friends in the United States. He participates in our reading group that we have on Tuesday evenings. And I sent out a piece from Liberation of the People to consider tonight called the...
Cláudia: Oh, gosh. How you read
Richard: your book. Those books totally falling apart, this
Cláudia: is a
Richard: sign that you
Cláudia: really read it, this book
Richard: is well used. Uh i think the the one i sent them was the inverted society or something. There's a chapter from this book, i'm just looking for the title of it now, the inverted fictitious, the fictitious society. And uh this fellow wrote us an email saying what really impressed him most about dr Keppe's piece from this book, Liberation of the People, is, if we are going to succeed in disinverting society, we must become conscious of our own destructive, envious attitudes and our inversion of values.
This is sort of where you're going with this conversation today, isn't it? I try. I'll try. You know,
Cláudia: talking about corruption is something that gives an enormous pleasure to everyone. If you speak about other people's corruptions,
Richard: all right, my corruption is not so
Cláudia: much fun. In order to be able to understand the process and try to avoid it as much as possible, we need to see the the very source.
And you know Richard you used to say that you love this kind of science that Dr. Keppe developed because we go deeper and deeper and deeper to the first cause of the causes. Like a true metaphysics. The study of the cause of all things. The very first causes of everything. Or even the first cause of all causes, which, by the way, is God.
But what is wrong has also the first causes, which is not God, but has to do with God in terms that it's a kind of reaction against him or a distortion, a denial of the true cause of all good things that exist by themselves or by the creation of God, whatever you want to say it. Now, going back to the corruption thing.
Corrupt, if you look up in the dictionary, it's a word that comes from Latin and not from French. French comes from Latin, right? So the very source of corruption is Latin, a Latin word. That means, amongst other concepts, to have a dishonesty for personal gain, depravity, extreme immorality or depravity, undesirable change, meaning error induced, an error that is induced in anything. When you corrupt your files by a virus.
Right. Right. This is a kind of corruption.
Richard: Corrupt your health.
Cláudia: It's, yeah, corrupt. Corrupt in terms of decay. Decaying.
Richard: Destroying in some way.
Cláudia: Being putrefact.
Richard: Putrefying.
Cláudia: Putrefying. Corrupting someone, like seducing someone. And becoming like immoral or unethical or destroyed or decayed.
Richard: Kinky, we'd say, you know, having these sort of
Cláudia: like perverse habits. Yeah, perverse. All vices are linked to corruption, all vices, all decays, and all pathologies.
Could you ever imagine that crying, that women love to do, is a form of corruption?
Richard: I wouldn't have thought that an initial thought, no, but as you're speaking about it...
Cláudia: So, when Keppe brings the concept of corruption, and he goes to the very beginning of corruption, seeing that we started to corrupt our bodies and ourselves, becoming ill and dying, because dying, death, is the ultimate form of corruption, of one's corruption.
Look at that. Corruption of our health, corruption of our...
Richard: It's the end result of all our corruption,
Cláudia: maybe. Yes, yes. To really decay and putrefy...
Richard: Putrefy,
Cláudia: yeah. To putrefy our bodies in a sense that we become... The
Richard: body can't support it anymore. We go
Cláudia: back to dust. So we really, we really go into an entropy, total entropy. It's a total lack of virtue, of firmness, of strength, of integrity.
This is corruption. And but hang on
Richard: a sec, Cláudia, because now you're going into some area that's really fascinating to me. Because you're suggesting then in your your discourse here that death then is not a natural state.
Cláudia: It's so we
Richard: have to start from that premise. The premise you're coming from is that we should live, that life is what's natural,
Cláudia: death is something unnatural.
It's the result of a corruption in some of our DNA.
Richard: Yeah, that's very important to talk a little bit about that because that's a very, very new idea for most of us. A very exciting idea, but not so...
Cláudia: Illnesses are a corruption of our DNA. A result of an energetic corruption that was led by the corruption in a more sophisticated vibrational level, which is the energetic transcendental level, psychological level.
We if we consider ourselves a being with several levels of vibration, we could say that our psychological vibration or the level of thoughts and feelings and consciousness is the higher vibrational level of ourselves. And so we go and we go down and down and we come to this embodiment of our energy which which is the physical manifestation of our energy which is is transcendental right.
Different
Richard: layers or levels scales
Cláudia: right. Yeah right right
Richard: as Tesla was talking. So
Cláudia: the problem starts in the psychological level. Yeah the transcendental level which is more energetic and it filters down and it spoils and corrupts and and make our body also decayed.
Richard: You alluded to something at the beginning where you said that what I love about Keppe science is going to the root.
And here you are going to the root. You're going to a starting place that most of us never start from. The starting place of Keppe is like so much more advanced than where most of us come
Cláudia: from. He comes from the perfect or from the bigger to the lesser. To the bigger, to the minor, to the lesser.
Richard: Starting from life, from totality?
Cláudia: From act to potency. And not to potency from potency to act.
Richard: From potential to act. No, this is inverted,
Cláudia: right? You have some action to... So, our corruption... From the perfect to the corrupt. He starts from the perfection.
Richard: I love this so much. We were talking in my business English class last night about values in business. There's a new book been written called The New Capitalist Manifesto.
Is this
Cláudia: manifesto that Keppe brought into his TV show?
Richard: I don't think so.
Cláudia: The New Moses Laws?
Richard: No, no, no, no. It's definitely not that,
Cláudia: Cláudia. We'll come to that, the real manifesto.
But in here, in this book, Umair Haik, I think that's how you pronounce his name, is talking about that we need to create meaningful value in the world, that values, products, services need to be something that's authentic,
Richard: meaning that it's not created at someone else's expense, that it's meaningful, meaning that it matters in human terms, it's sustainable.
These kinds of values they're talking about now are something that Keppe has been talking about for his whole life, But it's presented now in our business world as if this is a new thing and that now we need to start doing that. We haven't been doing it, but now we've evolved to a place where now we need to start considering these things.
But you're suggesting something very different, that we have fallen very far from what we should have been in the beginning.
Cláudia: So let's try to make a list of possible perversions, corruptions, decays, destructions, contaminations, rottenness, spoil. To spoil is a synonym of to corrupt, to subvert, to change the true nature, the perfection, to seduce,
Richard: to
Cláudia: distort. All of these are synonyms of corruption.
So let's try to give examples, some examples. Try to do that, Richard.
Richard: Yes. Examples of words now or of mentality? Actions. Socially we can see this idea of banks lending money to countries in order for them to develop war machines. Yeah so it this
Cláudia: is a this is an ultimate corruption and because it perverts the country and it goes to an immoral meaning which is killing other people.
Yeah so war is an enormous expression of corruption. What countries that go to war they are very corrupt and people who support wars they are very corrupt as the terrorists are if there are terrorists and when there are terrorists they are also corrupt. But those who respond with the same means under the same
Richard: yeah yeah eye for an eye tooth for a
Cláudia: tooth yeah they are also corrupt and corrupting.
Uh
Richard: let's just stop for a
Cláudia: second, Cláudia. Look, the time is flying by here. We need to take a quick break.
Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? We are on the Positive World Radio Network, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, looking at corruption in a way I'm sure you've never considered before. And I'm very excited about where our conversation will go today. So don't go away.
We're coming
Richard: right back. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones with Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy. Considering through the lens of Norberto Keppe's Science of Analytical Trilogy. How we corrupt and how we do this individually and, of course, how this manifests socially. So do you want some more examples? No, go ahead. All
Cláudia: right. So this idea of...
Charging interests. Okay. Gaining interests. Isn't this a corruption? Like everybody has to sweat in order to make their money and some of them just go to bed and they do a lot of money just
Richard: by cheating other people. Yeah, I was looking at this with some students the other day where we were looking at the pie chart of the way Brazil spends its money.
This is true for every country. We just happened to be looking at Brazil's. You know that almost 45% of the money that comes into the government is spent for interest
Gilbert: and
Richard: refinancing the debt.
So I was showing this to the students, and almost nothing is spent comparatively for education, for sanitation, for security, for science and technology, for art, almost nothing comparatively. So I was saying to my students, so here you are, you're working, you work all day, you work hard, now you're here in an English class trying to improve yourself so you can develop in your career, and they're spending 45% of your money just to service the debt that the government has created in your name.
So you're working for what? You're working for banks. We're all working for banks. This is Brazil, but it's as equally true in the United States. Japan has the highest internal debt of any country in the world today. This is
Cláudia: immoral. Do you think that what China is doing with other people's industries, bringing and invading like a tsunami of low-quality products...
Richard: Dirt cheap.
Yeah. Terrible, low-quality dirt
Cláudia: cheap. Do you think that what China is doing could be a form of corruption, considering under this perspective?
Richard: In this light, what a way to think of it. Yes, of course, because it's
Cláudia: destroying... Corruption, because they are doing, they are corrupting countries, they are corrupting industries, they are corrupting everybody, buying for a very low price, a very low quality product.
And they are even destroying industries and this economic tissue of nations. So all the system of China being the big industry, like a dragon of corruption all over the world, and also destroying the quality of technology that countries would have already had if they would be building their own industrial products. Greener ones, even though more expensive, more perfect, more like requiring more dedication and more investment.
Richard: Lasting a longer time.
Cláudia: Lasting a longer time, better quality, more sustainable and job creating kind of industries.
Richard: And at the same time China is doing this, they say, look, we know we pollute a lot, but we can't stop pollution.
Cláudia: But because we have to keep developing, they say. Yeah, so this is a kind of example of corruption. So Chinese government and Chinese mentality and system is incredibly corrupt.
Now, there are the corruptors and the corruptees. So the corruptees are not victims. The corruptees suffer from the same disease of corruption of the corruptors. So countries that accept and governments that accept this are as corrupt as Chinese people. Now, this is an example. Now, let's go further. Pharmaceutic companies. My
Richard: next option.
Cláudia: Yeah, it's very
Richard: obvious, very clear. They are producing and selling things they know will not cure anyone and will create even more side effects.
In fact, they don't want them to cure people because then they lose business.
Cláudia: Yes. So, corruptors are the pharmaceutical people that work for this industry, but corruptees are those who buy thinking
Richard: they will get
Cláudia: healed and they enjoy being sick. They enjoy. They enjoy being sick. They enjoy being in the hospital. They enjoy being in the doctor's office. They enjoy doing tests and examinations like this, checkups and being.
So the narcissistic attitude of the hypochondriac people is an enormous corruption. The corruptee. Because they enjoy speaking about their
Richard: pains and diseases and how much they suffer and how much they were like cut by their surgeons and how many. Look at my scar. Yeah. Yeah,
Cláudia: so being sick is also an enormous form of corruption. And here we are now starting to enter into another dimension, passing from or going from the socio-economic political corruption, which is very evident, to the more like individual corruption.
Yeah, more subtle. So here we come with the pedophilics. We come forward to the field
Richard: of the
Cláudia: thieves, the killers,
Richard: the
Cláudia: drug addicts, which are as corrupt as the drug
Richard: traffickers and the banking
Cláudia: system that launders the money. So uh all this kind of sexual eating habits for instance eating habits it's so much corruption. When people get so fat because of what they eat and they enjoy eating wrong food and junk food this is an enormous form of corruption.
Smoking drinking drinking too much being an alcoholic is an enormous form of corruption. Sure,
Richard: being on the couch and doing nothing with your life, not studying.
Cláudia: Being lazy.
Richard: Being lazy.
Cláudia: Buying, buying, buying, buying, consuming, consuming, consuming. It's an enormous corruption.
Richard: This narcissism around how do I look. Can
Cláudia: you see how much corruptive it is to live in, like, buying things? Why do you think this is corrupting?
In what ways? Many ways. Now, let's ask our listeners to contribute with what they understand of our approach of corruption and sending examples, not only of what they do, but what they see being done in society. Yes. Expending
Richard: more money, spending more money than what we have, borrowing money, lending money. Using our credit cards to the limit.
Cláudia: Yes. All of this are forms
Richard: of corruption.
But now let's go a
Cláudia: little bit further and explore our inner life even more. So Keppe brings here that in this book, Liberation Through Knowledge, the very source of corruption is something that is linked to the destruction of knowledge, of reason. And here he enters in the field of psychosis, neurosis, because he explains here that we are not still in the age of reason in humanity.
Richard: We haven't arrived there yet.
Cláudia: No. Didn't
Richard: even get close. We will not because of the ignorance we have around the process of corruption.
And not only corruption, as we are used to know, but corrupting knowledge, corrupting wisdom, corrupting reason. And how do we do this?
Cláudia: We get into the ignorant field or the ignorance, ignorant world. We become unknowledgeable, irrational, out of mind, out of our minds, out of the reasonable things, outside what is reasonable, outside what is wise of the common sense, because of what?
Because of our emotions, our pathology. Pathos in Greek is emotion. And then, after he wrote this book, in the years of 1991, he was in France, right after, Goldman wrote Emotional Intelligence.
Richard: Daniel Goldman.
Cláudia: Yeah, Goldman. He studied with Keppe,
Richard: by the way, didn't he?
Cláudia: He got the books. Yeah. But what he did was to apply a little bit further in the brain system.
What is this concept that in order to have wisdom and knowledge and be rational, we must use both sides of the brain in harmony. Energetically speaking, we need both sources of energy.
Richard: Both hemispheres.
Cláudia: Both hemispheres.
Richard: Right and left in harmony and balance in some way.
Cláudia: Because one is more linked to emotions and intuitiveness, and the other one is more intellectual. But the very source of all this function...
Our emotional glands, as we say, the encephalus, hypothalamus, epiphysis, which is hypothalamus, all the central emotional
Richard: of the brain is
Cláudia: very much effective and linked to the way we think in our cortical aspect. So all the brain works in interaction. And if our emotions are negative, hatred, depression, negativity... Rage. Rage, envy, whatever negative emotions we have, this causes the blocking of the functioning of our brain.
Richard: Our brain can't work properly.
Cláudia: Yes. So what we think would be intellectual or rational person, this is not true. He's not really, really, really rational, not reasonable. He can be like a rationalistic or intellectualoid, but not real
Richard: rational. Because he's cut from the emotions, the true
Cláudia: emotions. Because there is only reason where there is love first. Feeling. Love, which is the only true feeling, love and goodness is the source of the true reason.
They are synonyms. Love and reason are synonyms. And this is very important. Would you like to give a break?
Richard: No, I don't want to give a break. I want to keep going here. We have time. We have a couple of minutes. Love and reason are synonyms. Yes. So this is true emotion now and true reason. Yeah. Not what we confuse for a reason, which is a kind of an intellectual...
Cláudia: Yeah, and nor passion, because
Richard: passion
Cláudia: is also not love, because it's irrational. Everything that is irrational is not loving, and everything that is not loving is irrational.
Richard: This explains, I think, why these great thinkers from the past, or these great people from the past, Jesus, obviously, but even in our more recent times, the Gandhis and the Martin Luther Kings, in their discourse, you feel compassion, extremely reasonable, extremely rational, but with tremendous tolerance, love, respect.
It's like throughout everything in their words, it carries these two aspects, you know. It's talking about justice in a strong way, but with love and respect for all. And it's
Cláudia: very powerful. Is if you are cold if you're acting without mercy without goodness and being cold and you say I'm being totally rational it's a big lie. It's a big inversion. Yeah
Richard: this happens in business a lot where people say well I have to screw these people over because that's just business that's just the way
Cláudia: or war
Richard: or war right.
Cláudia: So uh being rational is never ever being cold cannot if you're being cold. If you are being coldly rational, you are not being rational at all. You're
Richard: not being truly rational.
Cláudia: No, you are not.
Richard: You're being this definition of what we say is rational.
Cláudia: Yeah. So ignorance, it started there. And for humanity, because we had infused knowledge when we were created in our perfect state before we started to decay.
Before we started our decay, we were perfect. We had infused knowledge. So we knew everything, we had the knowledge, the total knowledge, so we ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge, which is ignorance, the wrong fruit. We were deceived, because then we thought, wow, I will know what is virtue, I will know what is goodness, truth, love, etc. And I will know also the perversion.
I will know also the pleasure to pervert. Of corruption. To deny, to destroy. So, Richard Jones, when you get to this point, you face, you have in front of you the very definition of what inversion is.
Richard: Okay, so let's come back and talk about that. What a fascinating class this is today. And I'm saying class because it's like that. We've never thought about reason in this way.
I'm quite sure it's never been considered very much certainly in our modern society at all. We are back in just a few moments. This is the Positive World Radio Network Thinking with Somebody Else's Head back in a moment. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I just want to give you a little bit of contact information before we dive back into this rather fascinating consideration today.
Our contact information, my email for anything I think Cláudia made sort of a question to you there or a challenge to you maybe to send us your ideas of what you see as corrupt action all around you.
You were talking just before the break about maybe the source of our corruption. Inversion.
Our inversion. Yeah, inversion.
Cláudia: Which is corrupt, right? Yeah, the definition of inversion is like seeing good in evil and vice versa. Now, more or less. But it's even more. It's taking pleasure in evil. Taking pleasure in doing acts of corruption. And this is, you cannot explain, why do you do this? Why do you keep destroying your health? Why do you keep smoking when you see that you're dying of cancer?
And they even think that when they advertise and with those pictures, you have to
Richard: be careful
Cláudia: because people will feel attracted to that. And they will look at this, wow, what
Richard: a pleasure to have cancer. This is totally rational, but it's inside human beings. It's like an inconscient type. We're not consciously, we're not sort of saying, oh, I choose to have my larynx taken out and a little voice box put in.
And nobody, of course, would consciously choose that. But somewhere inside, you're saying, we have this pleasure in doing things that are against this sadistic, masochistic...
Cláudia: When you
Richard: see
Cláudia: even scenes in movies of sadomasochistic actions,
of sexual sadomasochistic practices, they are totally having fun and pleasure in inflicting pain or having pain being inflicted. It gives so much pleasure that people can have orgasms of pleasure, of this corruption, of destroying oneself and other people's.
Cláudia: So, this is something that is not only inside four walls of a motel or hotel or whatever. Whatever. This is not only a sexual perversion.
Richard: No. It's something that is present like in babies, in babies when they are born because they enjoy so much screaming. They enjoy so much in destroying their toys. They enjoy so much kicking and hurting animals and cats and pets.
And they enjoy so much biting the breast of their mother and they enjoy so much doing so many wrong things. It's a pleasure they have So if they have the pleasurable attitude of saying no to their parents When their parents want them to do something good This is corruption Could we talk a bit more about this pleasure we take in this? Because most people say, well, I don't take.
They do take, if they're
Cláudia: honest, they could be honest.
Richard: If we're honest, we have to see that the human
Cláudia: beings. Not studying, you do anything, anything like procrastinating things. You procrastinate good things because you take pleasure in destroying and corrupting your time. And corrupting your brain and corrupting your intelligence and corrupting your well-being. And corrupting your being even more. So this is something, this is true inversion as Keppe mentions.
Richard: Which is the ultimate corruption. The
Cláudia: ultimate corruption.
Richard: The first corruption maybe.
Cláudia: So, when you have, like, emotions, I thought, I taught another day in a class, I said, "have you ever noticed when something is, like, when you are watching a beautiful scene of something, or a beautiful scene in a movie or in a landscape or in a situation where you are confronted with supreme beauty and supreme goodness, an act of goodness, of purity, of perfection."
And then you feel you can't stand that. You start speaking or you start coughing or you start crying. If you are like feeling too much happiness, women do this a lot, they start crying. Because when they cry in front of a beautiful scene, whatever scene...
Richard: A wedding or wherever. A
Cláudia: wedding or their children being born or whatever, they start crying. So why?
In front of something that we are becoming conscious, a beautiful knowledge, which we... Emotion enters, we cry, and we dissolve that knowledge. It's a form of corruption of knowledge. Of diminishing the knowledge. Diminishing, diminishing, right, Richard? Diminishing the purity, the pureness of a true feeling of love.
Richard: You said this to me one time, it struck me, it was a number of years ago now, you said, and in one of our radio programs, you said, Richard, if you see a beautiful woman talking to me or to all men, the tendency will be to want to take that woman to bed, right?
To corrupt. To corrupt the feeling of beauty, the appreciation of beauty. Yes.
Cláudia: So pay attention, Richard. When you have a friend, if you go to bed, after that, it seems that this beautiful feeling,
Richard: it's kind of gone. It's corrupted. It's never the same again. Friends talk about this. So
Cláudia: we destroy all the good, beautiful feelings we have, the true knowledge, the true appreciation, the ecstasy that we could have with the true knowledge and the true wisdom and the true contemplation and the true feeling of love.
We corrupt with emotions. So either we get hysterical or we cry or we fight or we find a way to destroy that. So we can't stand, we can't stand ultimate happiness. Today I had a client attending, a Japanese client, and she said, for some reason I always thought that a feeling of ultimate happiness would be something wrong to be done, that I could not do that, this was not allowed to me.
Richard: I wouldn't be allowed to feel that.
Cláudia: This was not right. For some reason, I should never, ever allow me to feel ultimate happiness in life. And I said, and now, what do you think about this? And she said, my God, it seems that a total inversion. So it is as if God would not allow her to do that. And not that she is denying the ultimate happiness that God gives to her and provided her with and provides
Richard: all of
Cláudia: us.
She's denying this, and she is doing this corruption to herself. So now, going back to women crying and crying and crying. They seduce their parents. They do whatever they want. They get things, seducing people with their crying, but also they corrupt themselves because by crying they dissolve anything that is wise, true, rational, and good feelings. So the crying of women, it's a sign of decay in women.
I'm not saying that we should never cry. You understand, this is going
Richard: to the ultimate positions that are too extreme.
Cláudia: But I would like to say that when I have women on the couch, I frequently give an important interpretation, and they cry. So they dissolve the consciousness through crying.
Richard: Right. Not wanting to see deeper. Not
wanting.
Cláudia: That's why men in general, they tend to be more rational.
And if they are more rational, when men are more rational, they are also more loving. And women do not agree with this.
Richard: No, they don't. In fact, I was thinking of Dr. Keppe, as you were speaking, who is a man who is not prone to excesses of emotional outburst, to say the least. But this is a man who is passionately loving about the truth.
I was totally dedicated to the truth, so there's a reason, and
Cláudia: to love. If you read his
Richard: books you see a lot of feeling in the books. So much feeling. The true feeling
Cláudia: in the books. So Richard, this
Richard: is complex isn't it. Cláudia, this is complex because it takes us to places we don't think about. We don't think about how we destroy true feeling through being coldly rational, as you said, through reacting in a way.
The
Cláudia: pleasure to corrupt.
Richard: Pleasure to corrupt.
Cláudia: Pleasure to corrupt. The pleasure to talk about negative things, to do intrigues, to think about negative thoughts, to procrastinate what we should be doing. So not acting, being lazy is a big corruption, enormous. But people have so much pleasure in corruption that many times they won't change. They won't give up their pleasure. And now going back to what we were talking, this is my consolation when we speak about real corrupt people in society.
I'm sure, I'm totally 100 sure, that the same corruption they do in society, seducing and corrupting people, they are corrupting their own beings. They are corrupting their intelligence for instance. So they will never understand what a true science is. Corrupt people don't have don't That's
Richard: why they don't
Cláudia: understand. They don't touch. They don't understand trilogy for instance. No.
Richard: And they don't understand art even.
I mean. They
Cláudia: don't understand art because art. Sometimes they
Richard: don't like music and you know.
Cláudia: Arts must be have this purity of reason also and balance with love and reason So all this emotional art is corruption.
Richard: Yeah, they understand art is a business. I could sell that. I remember watching a movie.
Cláudia: So they don't understand trilogy. Some people say, why, why, why?
Why trilogy is not better known? Because trilogy is not corrupt. Trilogy takes away the pleasure that people have with corruption, corrupting themselves, being sick, being sad, being stupid, being procrastinated, being lazy, having addictions. And being egotistic, being
Richard: narcissistic, being envious, being hateful,
Cláudia: destroying themselves. So this brings an enormous pleasure. So if Trilogy takes away the pleasure they get, so they want Trilogy away.
They want Trilogy away as they want everything that is good, beautiful and truthful away.
Richard: Is this why we're destroying nature? Yes, sure. Because we can't tolerate?
Cláudia: We can take all this beauty.
Richard: You know, I think they say this sometimes to my students.
Cláudia: Good health and good
Richard: air, even. We see the shopping center we have across the street, which is absolutely spotless. If anybody spills a drink there, there's four people.
Immediately they stop the escalator. They put little protectors around so nobody falls. They clean it up immediately. But the river across the street is completely polluted. I mean, there's nothing living in it at all. So we have this, the things that we create, we think, wow, look at that, that's fantastic, where there's money, then we put energy. But nature, things of
Cláudia: God?
This explains why they put graffiti all over. And there are many boroughs where people live under... Under the bridge, you mean? Whatever, whatever. Like those poor...
Richard: Poor people in neighborhoods.
Cláudia: People in the neighborhoods, they take pleasure to destroy their own lives. Because if you see, there are a few that do not want to corrupt themselves so much. And they can come from very poor circumstances.
Sure. Yeah. And they become presidents or they become senators or they become rich people. They become artists. Successful. Successful because they
Richard: didn't have the same pleasure as the
Cláudia: others do with their own destruction. So that's why very seldom people like leave the underground circumstances in their lives because of the pleasure they take in that corruption. This is so so like shocking to many people who want to see all these people like victims.
But try to take away those people from the pleasure they have living the lives they live, they will attack you even, because they want to to continue with that pleasure. So why people prefer go to hell instead of going to heaven? Because they prefer pleasure and corruption instead of real true happiness. That will
Richard: give us something to think about. We can do that and then we'll come back again next week and maybe consider more on this subject.
The program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Always wonderful to have you with us.
My name is Richard Lloyd Jones. Always wonderful to have you with us. We'll talk to you again next time on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Bye-bye for now.
