Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones and welcome to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. My father is fond of saying that the problem with human society is that we were born without an operating manual. Clever, I thought, once, but then thinking more carefully, I realized it's actually not true at all. We have endless advice passed down through tradition and testament and even tablet that lays out pretty unequivocally how we should live.
And it's surprisingly consistent. From Buddhism to Christianity, Confucius to Muhammad, the great mandate has always been to do unto others what you would have done unto you. So it's out there, and it shows up again and again in social conventions and cultural upbringing, and even on fridge magnets and coffee mugs. Constitutions and declarations and proclamations for centuries have laid it all out.
This is not the problem, Dad. Our problem is we don't want to follow it. Yes, it's an obedience thing. When confronted with what we should do, we human beings like to say, Oh yeah? Who says so? Defiance to the truth, then. This is deep, isn't it? And it's deep inside us all. Exploring the hidden me today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
We're on the Stop Radio Network, along with shows from our good friends Gilbert Gambucci, Analyzing the 1%, and Susan Berkley, The Conscious Company, and soon, I hope, from Will Lajeunesse, who's putting together an esoteric program on metaphysical and spiritual issues that I'm really looking forward to. Our topic today, exploring the hidden me, is extraordinarily relevant given the enormous projection going on all around society.
From social activists blaming society's problems on the others in corporations or governments or secret societies, to conservatives bashing liberals and vice versa, to Palestinians blaming Israelis, Israelis blaming Palestinians, to everyone blaming Syria or Iran. There's a prodigious amount of finger-pointing going on at the moment. Always has been in human society, actually. A lot of this is stimulated, of course, by the sickest among us, those in power particularly, but it also occurs because we understand little about psychology and psychopathology.
Freud began the process of exploring this hidden part of ourselves, and Norberto Keppe has concluded the study, so we can say pretty unequivocally now that we have the psyche figured out. It's a matter of analyzing what's going on through that lens, and this is what we're not so adept at yet. Jung used to say that what is poorly resolved in us shows up outside as fate, pointing out that the external world is a reflection of the inner world of human beings.
And Freud also gave us a big look inside this murky world inside. No mortal can keep a secret, Freud said. Betrayal oozes out of him at every pore. This means that we reveal our true selves in everything we do, say, and even think. There are no mysteries, but there's endless discovery for those of us ethical and virtuous enough to undertake the journey of self-discovery.
Let's set out on that journey today, exploring the hidden me with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco when Thinking with Somebody Else's Head continues in just a moment on the Stop Radio Network. We're listening
to the most relevant conversations on the planet about how to stop destroying ourselves and the world.
Richard: This is Richard Lloyd Jones. It's a globalized world today.
Publish something on virtually any social network and it could go viral in minutes. This makes it very exciting for our Stop Radio Network, of course, because now we're not limited to 50,000 watts in terrestrial radio coverage. Our programs are heard in more than 100 countries. If you're looking to reach customers, suppliers, even new employees more effectively, you need that global presence, too.
That means globalization services like internationalization, localization, interpretation, translation, cultural consulting, and multilingual development. All of that is what we do at Millennium Translations. We're a worldwide distributor of translation and localization services, and we work in a huge variety of languages. We're also part of the Millennium Group of Trilogical Enterprises. So check us out on the web, eTranslate.com.br. Millennium Translations, we help you operate more effectively around the world.
Norberto Keppe. And there are many exciting applications of his work occurring in Brazil and numerous other locations around the world. This includes language classes, translation services, psychology sessions by phone or Skype, and the new energy solutions proposed by the Keppe Motor.
Now, back to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network.
Richard: Proudly streaming on the Stop Radio Network. This little network is having some impact now, Cláudia. People are starting to listen more. And this is very, very good. And the people are listening for a long time. Our Stop Radio Network is available through iTunes. Just go to the iTunes radio stations listed there and look for News Talk Radio Stations.
And there you'll find us, Stop Radio Network.
It's a lot of websites to remember. So if you want to go just through iTunes, that's a great way to do it. And we've been producing this program now, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, for about five and a half years, I think. So it's been heard and is being heard around the world, and I'm very grateful for that.
So you who are listening and enjoying what we do, please pass it on to other people you think need to know about the consciousness we bring, The Consciousness of Analytical Trilogy. Because it's very important that more people begin to understand about this. Because I'm seeing Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco has joined me again today. I'm seeing Cláudia a real how to say this a lack of belief that goodness has power.
And I don't say this in like a sort of like I've done any research about this, but I've noticed just in talking with my students about this. And for example, one student of mine the other day was, he's noticed a change in his company. His company has changed ownership. The leadership has changed their focus. And where he was one of the primary directors in this company for a long time, focused on building a real foundation. A foundation for the business based on developing really good people, developing really good systems, working to develop effective teams that could deal with all the problems that they were facing.
Now he's noticed the company is focusing totally on money. Totally on money, not totally on money, but you know the focus has changed away from what he was helping to develop and more into just developing a business that's based on short-term results. And he said he's starting to feel that he's been stupid, that he has lost momentum because of this. And now everybody's going along making money, and he's focused on these old values of building a business.
He's starting to think that he's stupid because he hasn't played the game correctly. So I feel that underneath this, there's kind of a belief somehow that if we do things well, we all know this to be true, but somehow because the business world doesn't work that way, the society doesn't work that way, that we're missing out if we don't act only in the short-term interests of ourselves or our pocketbooks.
You know of course this is so crazy to be thinking like this, but this is a belief I feel is really prominent in the
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: world. Richard we are in a dead end and this is a little bit, we must go a little bit more in depth to understand the problem. The most important contribution Freud gave to psychopathology or to the scientific world is something that nobody before him said.
He realized that behind our social mask, behind our conscious world or conscious thoughts, we have a psyche, which is a little bit more complicated than just our intellectual or rational life. He realized that behind the social appearance, every person, no exception, has a kind of hidden ego or a hidden me, which is sometimes becomes very different from what we think, from what we expect.
And this hidden me desires and wants and has intentions that are not. Approved at all by our ethical system or society. But Freud put that thing in more in terms of sex. So he saw most of the problems sexual oriented. Keppe in his work as a psychoanalyst, he went further or he went more like ahead than what Freud did and accomplished. And he realized that the true me, which is hidden, is not really only linked with sexual, immoral, perverted desires.
This is just the small part. What is worse is the ill feelings, the evil intentions we have in this latent kind of being. Or this latent kind of me. So we hide within us this other me, which is many times the opposite of what we think we are. So this is an enormous contribution that psychoanalysis brought. But unfortunately, more superficial psychologists and psychoanalysts and more materialistic psychiatrists, physical, physiological-oriented, they deviated from this incredible discovery that Freud brought.
Because what Freud realized is that if one gets in touch with this latent ego, this latent me, if we become conscious of this, we can heal a lot of diseases. Not only neurosis, which in the time, during that time, was mostly hysterical phenomena or compulsive, obsessive-compulsive behaviors, but also psychosis, as Keppe puts it, and also psychosomatic illnesses can be healed if we get in touch with this latent ego.
And
Richard: by latent, I think you're meaning like hidden, too, right? It's
Cláudia: like latente. It's something that is always there. It's always there.
Richard: It's always there to be manifested. And you know
Cláudia: how can we know and understand about this other ego? It's through lapses of the tongue.
Richard: Slips of the tongue, we would
Cláudia: say. Slips of the tongue, through dreams, through consequences, too. Freud said, if you want to know about or discover your hidden desire, your hidden intention, unconscious intention, you see through the results, through acts that you did not expect yourself to do.
So why did I do this? Why did I do that? So people don't understand. They want to do something, but they do the opposite. They would like to behave in one way, but they behave in the opposite direction. So the hidden me is manifested through consequences.
Richard: Wasn't it St. Paul who had this, sort of explored this a little bit, Cláudia, when he said...
Cláudia: Not as unconscious. He said, why do I do what I
Richard: don't want to do, and why don't I do what I should do? Of course, he wasn't exploring unconsciously, but he was exploring this thing that
Cláudia: happens, right? Yes, that why don't I do what I would like to do, right? It's a fundamental question. It's a fundamental question. And so, Richard, going ahead with this, if you have a business and if you ruin your business, you go bankrupt, unconsciously your desires are not in accordance to what you think about your business.
So unconsciously your actions go against yourself. If you have relationships that don't last, the same. You pretend to yourself you want, Or you think, you honestly think that you want that, but if it doesn't work, it's because deep down you don't want. The same thing, women that cannot become pregnant, they are psychologically unable to have children. They are obsessive about having a child, they want consciously, but deep down they have something in themselves that deny that to them.
Richard: So now you're giving me a very interesting idea about Dr. Keppe's work, Cláudia, because he has focused very much on seeing the problem, seeing, looking at the results. And he was condemned, I don't know, condemned is the right word, but he was really not appreciated in North America when he came out with this analysis of the society, looking at the results through his book, Decay of the American People.
Right.
Cláudia: So people don't want to see problems and they, even less, they don't want to see this hidden me, hidden ego. So, Richard, if you have a dream, if you cannot dream, your balance will not be restored, your psychological, your physiological balance. Dreams are very important, very necessary. Why? Because dreams bring to your consciousness this other horrible me that is inside each one of us.
Everything we dream about, thieves, murderers, dragons, whatever, evil things, perverted things we see in the dreams, they are showing, they represent, they are a metaphor of intentions that we hide inside of us and that are there, latent, and they can manifest themselves sooner or later. So in order to restore the balance, we must see this. So dreams use this kind of representation in order to show to us what we normally cannot bear to see.
So it's a form to compensate the truth about ourselves that we hide from us, that we would never be able to consciously admit. I am like this, I am, I have murderous desires, I have perverted desires, I have a lot of anger, I have very, very sick tendencies inside of myself, and if I don't see this, my health will be at stake.
Yeah okay so this is something that happens also in society and in institutions. Richard politicians go there and they say I if I am elected I will do this and that all good things and when they are there when they become elected they do the opposite. So they perform what their hidden latent beings want to perform the same things. Institutions like the religious institutions they praise what is good they praise God they praise goodness they praise truth they praise beauty but they perform evil they perform lies or lying they perform perversions they perform war.
They kill people. They steal sometimes. Institutions taught human beings and humanity and society that you cannot trust people who are like advocating goodness because they don't do goodness. They don't perform goodness. They don't act in accordance to what they say, what rationally they give value.
Richard: Wow, look at the beautiful work that he did here. And this is Keppe. Keppe, of course, that's what I mean.
Yeah, not short. Before he did here, yeah. When he tells the story of attending a CIA agent in New York and the CIA agent telling him, look, people are not very, the powerful are not very happy with your work here in Decay of the American People because they consider your critique of what's happening here to be an attack. And really what Keppe was trying to do was to show this latent part that wasn't being seen so that it could be corrected.
So he was doing the correct work, but it wasn't seen as that, was it? So let's take a quick break. We'll come back in just a moment to continue our conversation about this. You're saying latent part now, this part that's hidden, but is always there that we don't understand very well.
Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network. We're back in just a moment.
I'm
Richard: Richard Lloyd Jones. You know, there are many ways to dig deeper into the themes we discuss in our Stop Radio Network programs.
There are books and TV and radio programs, conferences, teleclasses. But what about this one? Learning a language. That's kind of wild, isn't it? Millennium Language School in São Paulo, where I teach, incidentally, offers eight language courses using Norberto Keppe's psycholinguistic method. Yeah, we use his vast literature. And scientific findings to make it easier for anyone to learn a language. Be a great time to tackle Portuguese, actually, with Brazil quickly becoming a prime world destination.
And you can learn online from wherever you are. So drop us a line if you'd like to learn more.
Millennium Language Schools. We're teaching life in eight languages.
Now, back to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head with Richard Lloyd Jones and Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco on the Stop Radio Network.
Richard: We are back. The Stop Radio Network is our network now. Our radio program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, and we're really starting to think with Dr. Keppe's head now, trying to understand what's happening here inside this human being that we haven't understood very well.
And, of course, if it's in the human being, it's in the society as well. So we have these intentions that we think on the surface, but our results show a completely different character going on underneath. Well, if we look at the destruction of nature, I guess we can see what is our latent intention. Yes.
Cláudia: And the difficulty of our work, Richard, is that we go against all tendencies in the planet.
Like, we speak about things that everybody wants to hide. So all institutions and individuals, they don't want to see this sick, hidden aspect of each one of us. So this honesty is not present, and not only honesty, but this knowledge. Because when Freud started this work to research the unconscious of people, he was trying to bring more honesty to society and to make people understand why they were so neurotic, so unhappy, because they were like two people.
And Jung also followed Freud, saying that one has like a sombra inside of us, a shadow, yes, a shadow, a shadow. And the mistake that Jung performed was that we should integrate in our personality this shadow aspect, which is we should have the balance between good and evil and the synthesis, like to integrate in our personality evil. But, you know, Richard, and this we should enter, because Keppe's work is extremely deep, extremely complex in one way and very simple in another way.
But in its complexity and his studies, he also had to go deeper in the metaphysical aspect of good and evil. So, Keppe considers evil as not existent by itself. Evil exists as a result of our choice. And which choice? A denial, to deny, to omit, to misrepresent, to destroy what is good. So this evil only exists when people are performing it. It doesn't exist by itself.
So if it's performed by evil spirits or by human beings, so it and institutions and laws they are being performed so evil is there in attitudes and it's present and it's real but it does not exist by itself. So it should not in the origin by by philosophical and metaphysical and scientific aspect it should not be integrated because it does not belong to nature.
So we has we have to understand our inverted will upside down will which leads us to use freedom in the wrong direction to say no to what is good to say no to what is beautiful to destroy to attack what is good.
Richard: Could I just say something about this quality because you you're talking about something that really has never been well analyzed until Keppe came along. This idea that we we um that evil is not something on its own, it's something that's manifested, created and supported by our actions, our activities.
And this is very clear to me when we we look at nature, because nature in its origin, in all of its activities, in all of its manifestations, is only good. Everything is done to bring things into balance, and that balance is always a healthy balance. So this that you're raising now of Keppe's view is that we we should be by our nature only good. So all of these problems that we create are something that we do against the basic essence of who we are and the
Cláudia: basic essence of nature.
But on the other hand Richard religious people have been talking about a good essence for centuries true and it doesn't work. It doesn't work. Why? Because now we have this in our psychogenetics. We have this inverted will, a wrong choice, a wrong, the upside down use of our will. And this is unconscious. We could even say that unconscious is a synonym of the upside down will.
So like the contra me. This morning, this morning, I had a client and he was doing plans to go abroad and study and an incredible making up a lot of plans and ideal situations where he could go and learn and learn how to do and learn English. And he would now live behind a lot of important things that he will not take care during this time that could be disastrous for himself.
So he thinks that his idea of going there and having this experience, it's a wonderful thing. And I said, okay, this is important. But also one must analyze all the time our true intentions and other implications and possible consequences of our ideals because we have a contra me inside of ourselves. On the conscious level, we want everything of the best for us and for people.
But inside, I have this kind of enemy of myself. I have a contra me, an against me, which is hidden and creates like devious situations where I will be destroying myself without acknowledging. And then the consequences come. And then I'll say, my God, why did I do this? And I'll say, because we or you were not aware in touch of this latent me, this upside down will, which is there.
So going back to these institutions, these religious institutions or these philosophers that always preached the best, and the best was never done, or done just a little, or just on the surface. So now Keppe is bringing something which is incredibly important, incredibly necessary if we want to continue with humankind, with civilization. But nobody wants to do this, to look inside and to look into the laws and the intentions. The laws were made to see who am I really, who are you all that are doing things that in the end will cause more harm than good.
Even though they once say, okay, I want the best, I want... But one gets, like many, many people get married and they think this is the best choice. But after a while they see it was the worst choice. This could never work because I was not really connecting to the reality of myself and the other one. But I
Richard: was just connecting with the surface.
You said something to me in my very first analysis with you, where you asked me if the decision I had made, And was I sure that that decision hadn't been made to make my life more difficult? And I still remember it. I mean, this is 11, 12 years ago. And it still causes me pause. Wait a minute. Am I making the right decision here?
Am I really sure that this is correct? This question you asked me caused me to evaluate everything that I've done and continue to do in my life. From one question you asked because um we have to have a little bit of doubt about ourselves sometimes you know. If we look out at the world and we see this mess that we have, why in the world are we not questioning maybe there's something wrong in the structure of our society, in the way we're thinking, in the way we're interacting.
Good heavens it's so clear isn't it
Cláudia: and people say I. But how can? This is the best. It cannot be done differently. Why not? If one stop and see... Behind that situation can and do exist hidden intentions, which Freud brought for the first time in psychoanalysis. And now, as I said, people that are preferring to use pharmaceuticals, like using drugs and pills to resolve situations that could never be resolved.
In that way, yeah. No, no, just with money or drugs or medical resources or new laws. The laws will be just to cover up what is wrong, so it will not resolve any problem. So we are performing or exercising the most difficult profession ever. And because even religious people, when they used to hear confessions, they heard things that they could never. Another day, the other day, I was talking to a priest and he was saying, well, there is some similarity between what you do and what I do.
Because people come to me and normally they only do that when they are dying, when they don't, they are sure they're going to die, so they call me to confess their sins and their problems. And I go there to the hospital and I hear things that I say, oh, I could never, ever imagine that person did these things. So this is something that I could never imagine.
And in this sense, there is an enormous difference between religious people, teachers, pedagogues, social workers, and we integral psychoanalysts, Keppian psychoanalysts. Because we know that this is, this is reality, there is not such a person that can be only good, like it's impossible, everybody
Richard: has this side, right, everybody. So
Cláudia: it's not something that we could never imagine, we must imagine that behind a good mask, a good person and a socially good oriented person, there must be an unconscious aspect.
And if these people are honest enough to understand this, they will control it, they will be ethical enough to control this aspect, and this
Richard: will be an enormous development, won't it?
Cláudia: Oh, for sure, Richard. But, you know, this requires an enormous honesty. And very few people are ready to do that. Very few people. What
Richard: is the future for us, then, if we're very few of us prepared to really...
To
Cláudia: really be humble. This requires an enormous humbleness, humility, to know ourselves beyond our intellectual life.
Richard: What is going to bring this humility, then? Ah, this
Cláudia: will bring an enormous virtuous society. For the first time, humanity will be able to rule its evil tendencies, oneself and other people's tendencies. Because then we will know that everybody needs to become conscious of this dark side or this latent side, unconscious side, which is upside down.
So the guy this morning, when I told him, but you have this contra me in you, so if you decide to go, you have a good intention, but pay attention. And then he said, oh, my God, so now what you said made me scared. And you see, so now he got scared. I said, no, now you should be more, like, secure, safer, because then you will have to recheck everything,
Richard: if this is really the best choice or not.
We can only be safe if we are ready to see everything, if we're conscious, right, yeah, if
Cláudia: we want to see, if we want, this is difficult, but it's the only
Richard: way. I have a graphic, this is here towards the end of our program, a graphic that Dr Keppe did of a true civilization, which he says is beginning now, and that the old, this old civilization of exploitation, egocentric, is, is ending.
People all want glory and, and material goods and pleasure. And that we're actually by going through this process, those of us who are willing to do that, we can actually begin to develop true work, true science, true art, this cosmic universal man that he says is here for us to take.
Cláudia: And you know something, Richard, I'm very sorry that so many people are giving up God, are giving up goodness, are giving up ethics, because they say it never worked.
It didn't work. If
Richard: you can't beat them, join them.
Cláudia: Watch the religious people that are always preaching this and they are always evil in their deeds. So they confuse God, goodness, beauty, and truth themselves with human beings, what they perform. And this is a pity. This is really a pity.
Richard: The world, the new millennium, is this close, my friends, but it takes a lot of humility
Cláudia: and a lot of effort and a lot of sacrifice because one must sacrifice to be healthy.
One must sacrifice in all senses. You cannot just do whatever you want because our will is upside down.
Richard: Norberto Keppe's psychology gives us the tools, finally, to understand what's going on in all aspects of human society and that consciousness is what we need to control our pathology and put things right again. This is much needed and much discussed on our Stop Radio Network programs and in Keppe's wonderful body of work put forward in these many books and TV shows.
That is our program for this week. The program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. My name is Richard Lloyd Jones. We're coming to you on the Stop Radio Network.
