Hello once again, and welcome to Episode 3 of our program on the Positive World Radio Network. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. You know, every week we set out to explore the body of work emerging from the Brazilian School of Analytical Trilogy, founded and directed by psychoanalyst and social scientist Dr.
Norberto Keppe. And a vast and comprehensive body of work it is, too, encompassing all areas of human endeavor. Now, you might ask, I know I did at the beginning of my study of Keppe's work, how has one man succeeded in developing a science that considers and explains all aspects of human life, from hard science to economics to education and religion and everything in between and outside that as well?
Sounds too massive, doesn't it? Too big to get a handle on. Well, let me try to narrow the focus a little. Keppe's a psychoanalyst, very experienced one too, very highly trained, including three years with Viktor Frankl in Vienna, the birthplace of psychoanalysis. Throughout his extensive career, Keppe, who's in his 80s now, has been interested in healing people, trying to discover the root causes of human suffering.
And all of his extensive clinical experience has led him to the discovery that we have an inverted view of life. Now, what does that mean? It means that the fundamental flaw we suffer from is that we see things upside down. And this causes all sorts of confusion and destruction. For example, we think energy comes from material, so we're destroying vast tracts of land and even sea to get more of that matter.
I remember doing a radio interview, maybe a couple of years ago now, with a Florida radio station, talking to us about the Keppe motor and saying, boy, it's great what you guys are doing down there in Brazil with the discovery of ethanol and what a difference that's going to make to the environment. And we were telling him, but wait a minute, ethanol planting sugarcane destroys the soil.
We've got all these farmers planting sugarcane now rather than foodstuffs to make money, and it's destroying the soil. The northeast of Brazil is a desert now because of sugarcane. So it's not as simple as that. You know what I mean? All of this idea of getting energy from material, this is a fundamental problem. Energy doesn't come from material. It's a more transcendental aspect that the capimotor discovers, and we'll be discussing that more on upcoming programs as well.
Another example of inversion, we think disease comes from outside us. So we elaborate an arsenal of vitamins and pharmaceuticals and vaccinations and remedies to protect us. And this leads to our paranoid worldview that the danger is outside. So we spray our food with highly toxic chemicals. We irradiate it. We ripen our imported bananas with ripening gas in large banana rooms. We create genetic modifications to withstand the onslaught of toxic products.
We could expand this outward to see our paranoid worldview and how we see danger to our civilization coming from terrorists or immigrants or anything new and unknown. I remember watching Michael Moore's documentary Bowling for Columbine, the one about gun control, about the Columbine disaster where those kids went kind of crazy, killing a bunch of teenagers, even some teachers there. In that documentary, Michael Moore was asking one young guy from a small town, well, where's the danger?
What's the problem? And the kid with this kind of crazed look in his eyes said, well, that guy over there, this person walking by, your cameraman, I don't know him. He could be a danger. We're totally paranoid about the outside world. This is also an inversion. We live in this heightened paranoia all the time. We've got a war on terror, we've got a war on drugs, we had Nixon's war on cancer, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Not seeing that we are the danger to ourselves, not others. Remember that cartoon of Pogo from maybe from the 60s, where Pogo says, we have seen the enemy and he is us. All of these are issues that are addressed in Norberto Keppe's work, especially because of this discovery of inversion. One of the areas we really see a lot of inversion, I want to bring in my good friend Gilbert Gambucci here, our man in the field.
One of the areas we see a lot of inversion is this area of money, putting money above everything else. And what this has caused is an enormous focus on money and very little focus on the real roots of civilization. So let me bring Gilbert Gambucci and our man in the field to give us some perspective on how Keppe sees this, on what is the real roots, the real basis of our civilization.
How do we create a civilization? It doesn't come from technology. It comes from something else. Gilbert, how do you see this? You've been studying Keppe's work in sociopathology for a long time. What's your view about this important issue.
Gilbert Gambucci: Yes, Rich, we've got to get more awareness about the importance, the fundamental importance of aesthetics, the arts, beauty, the part that this plays in our lives.
It's very, very dynamic. In fact, Keppe defines aesthetics as inner equilibrium. You know, the human being, he's not only intelligence, he's not only thought, and he's not only feeling all the kinds of feelings that go on inside. But inside psychological life, he is also aesthetic. And in fact, it's the aesthetics that link the two, link the thought, the intelligence with feeling, the intelligence with love.
This link is the aesthetic. So it's an integral part of psychological life. That's why the arts affect us so much. In a good way, it puts us in touch with ourselves. This is sanity. So on a social plane, we need to develop the arts. You know, this is a consciousness. Consciousness provides social equilibrium. And we notice today in society, people are very imbalanced in general.
People are all the time arguing about this or that point. Everybody showing their opinion. There's a lot of confusion, social confusion going on. And, you know, the media is supposed to be our social consciousness. So this shows that they have a very dangerous pact with the economic power because, in fact, nobody knows exactly what's going on. It's on purpose. But how
Richard: does this show that the fact that the media doesn't present arts, doesn't lift us up with good arts?
How does this show that they have a pact with the powerful Gilbert? What are you
Gilbert: saying here? There's something that we are verifying scientifically in relation to the arts, and that is, where do social values come from? Because people are complaining, well, we're losing the social values, our cultural values. There are none anymore. The younger generation, they don't have these values. So we've got to have more rules, more regulations, more laws.
And in fact, Rich, the more imbalanced a society, the more laws and regulations you need to keep people in a certain equilibrium, the more social values, the more cultural values that a nation has, the less regulations you need. Is that logical? Does that make sense? So we are verifying that social values comes from the arts. You know, if you want to bring back these values, you have to develop the arts, the true arts, this art that plays on the aesthetic of
Richard: psychological life.
Keppe even says that actually it's the arts, the aesthetics that puts us in touch with reality. You know, we've had the idea that reality is what we see in society, all of this corruption and destruction and death and killing and torture. We think this is the reality. And actually kept me saying, no, the beauty, art and aesthetics puts us in touch
Gilbert: with the true reality.
You know, Rich, when I was a kid growing up in the 60s in Pennsylvania, I remember there were the National Community Concerts, they were called, and in Scranton, Pennsylvania, which is a primarily coal mining region, to have suddenly an influx of the fine arts music, as we say. This was a wonderful thing that affected the whole region. And the whole country was implementing these concerts.
And the great Joan Sutherland began her career there, and the pianist Van Cliburn. There were many artists going through these national community concerts. And so there was a wave of artistic development that was happening. And of course, this plays on psychological life in a very good way, very strongly. This affected the whole nation in a way that perhaps most people don't perceive the fundamental importance of developing arts in a society.
Because it's the arts that gives us our social values, the cultural values that we need. In more recent times, we see a severe lack of social values to the point where we see an imbalance in our youth, where there are many shootings that go on in the high schools, for example, things that didn't happen before in our society. And so the question of losing our social values is very serious.
And you can't replace that with rules and regulations. More laws. You know, the more laws a nation has, this shows them how imbalanced it is. But I've learned that recently, the community concerts in 2003, 2004, they're bankrupt. They don't exist anymore. This is a very serious sign of a nation that is in decadence, where the arts are no longer developed in this way.
Nowadays, people just think about money. The philosophy of life is to become rich.
Richard: This is wonderful, Gilbert. Now, I know that there's a lot of incredible things happening in this little town of Cambuquita in the interior of Brazil through the arts, through the arts and education. Talk a bit about that project, what's going on there.
Gilbert: This is a small community of 5,000 people in the mountains of Brazil, the same size as the town where I grew up in Jessa, Pennsylvania.
However, this little city in Brazil called Cambuquita, In the 50s and 60s, it was a famous tourist resort because of the natural mineral waters that are in this area, curative mineral waters, many different types. But since then, the town has gone into a decadence. And so there's 70% unemployment, for example. And decadence is not just an economic thing. It's a philosophy of life that changes to bring back work ethics and how to live life in an altruistic way, helping others.
This is another thing. Nowadays, we see people that just want to provide for yourself. I work for myself. I do things for myself. So there, we're trying to recover this town. How can you recover a city that has entered into decadence? Because our objective is, well, if we can recover this city, then this can be applied to other cities or even nations.
So my part, I'm giving free piano lessons to 40 children in the town. And one of the first things that we can verify scientifically is how this changes the social values of people. For example, the kids, in the beginning, they used to come anyway, dressed in any way, smelling a bit funky and, you know, coming in off the street for their piano lesson.
And shortly afterwards, we realized they started spiffing themselves up and the girls getting all dolled up to come to their piano lessons with a flower in their hair and their nails all painted up and they were changing. So one night I had a meeting with the parents. And they started asking me, Gilbert, are you teaching the children how to dress and how to conduct themselves with the other teachers in the schools?
Because they were noticing that they were improving their behavior and their outlook, their mentality. And so I had to try to explain to them, no, I'm giving them piano lessons, really. And so it's a phenomenon here. There's a scientific phenomenon here that when people get in touch with the arts, with beauty, this affects the aesthetic that is inside of psychological life. And that's where the social values come from.
It comes from within the human being. And so if you want to recover a nation or a people, you have to develop the arts because social values, cultural values comes from the arts because you can't recover a situation with just money. Money tends to inflame the megalomania of people, the narcissism, the pathology. You have to recover a situation with the arts because the arts reaches the goodness and the beauty that is inside the person.
Recovery comes through the arts. There's no other way.
Richard: That would appear to be true, Gilbert, actually, because I noticed from some studies being done, a UCLA Graduate School of Education and Information Studies, they researched about 25,000 students, secondary school students, over a period of 10 years. And they found some pretty amazing things. They found that creative thinking improved with students who were involved in the arts.
They had a greater number of ideas or approaches to solve problems. They were more original. They were able to elaborate in more detail, formulate solutions, had general competencies, were much advanced. So it appears that this is being borne out in all of the research that's happening throughout the world. So it's good to understand that. Well, you're listening to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, Richard Lloyd Jones.
I'm with you here. And we're going to have our special guest, Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco, once again, to fill us in on Norberto Keppe's amazing science. So stay tuned. And after this break, we'll be right back with our guest here on the Positive World Radio Network.
The audience is listening to Positive World Radio, the authentic voice of planet Earth.
Richard: We are back on the Positive World Radio Network, Richard Lloyd Jones, with Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, and my special guest once again, Dr.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco. And, you know, when we talk about Norberto Keppe's work, you hear us talk about a lot of different aspects because it has applications in a lot of areas of human endeavor. And that sounds really big, I know, because we're not used to thinking that way. We're used to seeing everything kind of separate. One guy was a molecular biologist, another guy was a paleontologist, and they have no way of communicating.
But with Keppe's science, Cláudia, he's found a way to unite the human experience. And I think most people listening will go, how the heck did he do that? Maybe even stronger words than that. How did he do that? How did he come to these conclusions to be able to define something in sociology, psychology,
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: medicine? Preacher and listeners. Relationships.
Richard: Dear listeners. Yeah.
Cláudia: Dear podcasters, if you can name them like this.
Richard: No, we'll call them radio listeners. I think that's a nicer term. Okay. So,
Cláudia: I'm really a witness of Dr. Keppe's work, and I have been following his efforts and dedication for some decades already. And what I see in him, Richard, first of all, is this continuous effort to overcome his own resistances and his own pathology in order to get to the truth, to help human beings.
And to do something really, really spiritual, not religious in terms of traditional religion, but really linked to God, really spiritual, and to be able to help humanity. So his efforts are to be like more in this path of truth as much as possible.
Richard: Ultimate truth, not some relative.
Cláudia: Ultimate truth, not relative, but ultimate truth in order to help people. So something that while we were talking, I remember that one of the major discoveries he did in psychoanalysis, because he's a master in psychopathology, he's really a master, he's really a genius.
And those who have followed him directing a group therapy or an individual analysis or seeing how he performs as a doctor of the soul, it is incredible. He's a genius. How he deals with depressive, with obsessive-compulsive, with epileptics, with schizoparanoid, psychotic people, psychopaths, whatever. So when we see him performing as a scientist, then we see the grandeur, the grandiosity of his divine science.
So when he was able to discover that the major cause of all psychosis was what he called theomania, this mania that human beings have of being godlike. And this is not only a matter of being megalomaniac. Small babies, they already manifest envy towards the breast of the mother, the goodness of the mother. They are paranoid because they depend on the good of their mother.
So, since we are small babies, we understand that goodness comes from other sources than from ourselves. We depend on goodness. We depend on our parents. We depend on the breast of the mother. We depend on life. We depend on God. We depend on anything or everything that is good. Energy, life that is coming from other sources than ourselves. Everything that is evil, that is painful, that is suffering, this is our fantasy world.
People normally name fantasy world a world where everything is beautiful, truthful, good, everybody is essentially good. But this was the normal, the previous world that we left
Richard: behind because
Cláudia: of this arrogant opposition to our creator.
Richard: Yeah, I think this is a fundamental part of Dr. Keppe's work is that this world that we call reality is really a... The distortion of the true reality.
And this world shouldn't exist. So one of the premises of his work is that evil is the absence or the destruction of goodness. Sickness is the destruction of health. That the true nature of human beings
Cláudia: is good, beautiful, and truthful. So if we don't have that in the society or in our own lives, it's because we're doing something to create disharmony, confusion.
And that's what we did. We made a mess out of the paradise. And this theomania that Keppe saw in individuals, he realized that the most theomaniac individuals in society generally are those in power. So theomania in society is the pathology of power and the pathology of powerful. Because powerful people, they behave as gods, ruling the life of human beings, peoples, nations, nature.
But they do so in a way to destroy it. And very envious as they are, they avoid people to have what they were supposed to have. The basic needs to survive, to live in accordance to our rights and being healthy and being able to accomplish, being free to be happy, to accomplish the good for our fellow man and have a life with dignity.
So what we see is that the powerful people are the most theomaniac people ever. And they want to take everything for themselves. And they want to take all the money, all the power, all the goods, very envious ones, and like voraciously taking everything from everybody and and keeping this just for themselves. So, like demons, they, you know, the concept of theomania is very much linked to the concept of Lucifer.
Richard: Theomania, you mean in the sense of a massive megalomania to such a level that the person wants to be like a god.
Cláudia: Yeah. This is how. Wants to be the creator, wants to be all-powerful, but all-powerful in an upside-down manner. Okay. So, it is the same process as happened to Lucifer. Which was the angel of light. He was so endowed with so many qualities and power and capacity and beauty.
So some theologians name him like the second after God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity, as if he was the major angel or archangel in creation. But because he did not accept to be the number two or be under the power of God and the rules of God, so he denied his essence and his role. And he wanted to be himself another God and create another universe where he would be the God.
And what he did was that he deprived himself and many other people to join the real creation, because other than the infinite divine creation, there is nothing, nothing possible.
Richard: No alternative universe.
Cláudia: So what he created was a delirious universe, like, how do you call this? Virtual kind of universe. In imagination, just virtual, not really existing. And it's a dimension where people live out of fantasies, out of really only ideas, only imagining.
And this imaginary world is the world of demons, of terror. Sometimes people wonder, because there are so many interesting subjects linked to that. Have you noticed that psychotic people, they never think or they never have deliriums as if they were negative people. They are like kings, they are Jesus Christ, they are always very megalomaniac, like they have megalomaniac thoughts about themselves, but in reality they are very incapable, very like sick and...
Out of reality. Out of reality. So this is Lucifer's condition. He's totally miserable, unhappy, rotten, he destroyed and denied all his beauty. So, everything that should never exist now, when we imagine how Lucifer is, we could name him the impossible being that would like to be another god and destroy himself.
Richard: So, by denying what he is, he becomes nothing.
Cláudia: So, this is what happens with us.
Richard: Let's talk about this, Cláudia, because we talk about Lucifer, the story of Lucifer, which is fascinating in your psychoanalytical perspective. How does this relate to us? What's the relationship between what happened to him and what's happening in our world? How do we make a connection to our day-to-day lives?
Cláudia: Well, this is very much linked to envy and gratefulness, too, Richard. So let's give an example.
When a person, a child, starts to think, he starts comparing himself to other people. And the result is that he's never satisfied with whom he is. The color of the hair, the eye colors, the height, the weight, the
Richard: muscles, the voice,
Cláudia: anything, the family, where they are born. So they feel very uncomfortable in themselves being who they are. And this is why, because they cannot accept they are here, they are born, and they have nothing to do with their creation.
They are not their creators. So they want to be another being, they want to create another being, they want to be another person. And this rejection towards oneself starts in very early age. Therefore, people who cannot stand this frustration of not being godlike creatures, they start creating either fantasies, abnormal, absurd behaviors. They isolate themselves from others or they over, like they behave overly, like in a successful way just to use a mask.
Richard: To compensate in some way.
Cláudia: To compensate all these frustrations, these inner frustrations. So here the neurotic behavior starts. And this is theomania. This is theomania. And in
Richard: our everyday life, you're talking about some examples of it, shows up in this incredible desire to acquire more and more and more. $56 billion is not enough. I need $57 or $100 billion. This attitude, the attitude we have in society to take more and more petroleum, more and more gold, more and more things from the earth.
Cláudia: So that's what young people have already in their minds. So they want to take from other fellows, they want to take their toys, they steal things from other people without necessity, they envy what other people have and they despise what they have. So the sickest ones, they start preparing their minds in a way that how are they going to succeed in being a millionaire, in being a powerful one, in being a god in society, in ruling other people's lives, in stepping on other people, in being above other people.
So those who are more theomaniac, they are those who decide to dedicate every second of their lives to achieve this goal. They are not caring about doing something useful, doing something good for their fellow men, leaving some important work for humanity. No, they want to be powerful. And those are the people who
Richard: get to presidential positions. They
Cláudia: become owners of incredible fortunes, you see, because
Richard: they
Cláudia: are the sickest.
You
Richard: know, there's all this pressure. We have to take a break here in a minute, Cláudia. But there's all this pressure about, in North America, we hear this all the time. You need to be a winner, not a loser. Oh, my gosh, there's so much pressure that comes in the human being because of that. And I was reading something that Cesar Soós, one of our engineers who invented the Keppe motor, said recently that he said that physics doesn't account for this organized force of things.
So we have this idea we have to recreate reality rather than work with the reality that already exists. Let's talk about that when we come back.
This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
The audience is listening to Positive World Radio, the authentic voice of planet
Richard: Earth.
We are back with Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network. This is a great opportunity, this new network that's been developing, for you to have more exposure to this new thought that's happening all around the world, and particularly coming out of Brazil, from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy. I want to just give you, before we go back to our guest, just a couple of resources to let you know about, because there's lots of things that you need to read and study, I think, to understand Dr.
Norberto Keppe's work more. And I'll tell you, when you embark on that journey, it is a very broad and powerful inner journey to wisdom and knowledge. So our Trilogy portal, this way you can find all sorts of resources in English or Portuguese and Spanish, different languages as well, is at trilogia.ws, T-R-I-L-O-G-I-A.ws. And we've posted quite a few resources on our Healing Through Consciousness site too.
And you'll find, in fact, a number of radio programs that Cláudia and I did taking calls from people to deal with psychoanalytical situations. That's really quite fascinating. So you'll find a number of videos of Dr. Keppe there, access to all of the books that we have available in English, and lots of other material to look through. So please do take advantage of those resources.
I know you won't regret that. We were talking before the break, Cláudia, about lucifer and his megalomaniac position, theomanic as you call it, as dr Keppe calls it, and how this impacts us in our life, where we try to create another universe than the one that exists, another reality to support these completely crazy psychotic, schizophrenic people, psychotics. They've created a whole separate reality, multiple personalities.
In a sense, we all do this.
Cláudia: Imagine if common people would be doing all this mess in the financial system. This is totally crazy and ethical. It's done by psychopaths, psychotic individuals. So all this huge mass that financial systems created for humanity, it's totally crazy. If a common person would cause a millionth of this to
Richard: anyone, he would be
Cláudia: put in prison or in a mental institution.
That's true. Because only totally psychotic people can come to everybody with this wood face, we say in Portuguese.
Richard: This shameless, absolutely shameless.
Cláudia: Yeah. And they say what they did, criminal actions with the money of people, of normal common people, taxpayers, people who work all their lives long to have something, to have the right to survive and have their homes. And their food and their clothing and their transportation in very, very reasonable, less than reasonable things, and they have to pay from their own sweating and from their own sacrifice for the crazy deeds of these thieves in power.
They are psychotic people. And they come and they say, that's it, because I'm in power. I have the power. So they are the sickest and the craziest individuals in society because they are the most theomaniac ones. Right. So we can consider we are theomaniac individuals, and we are, because even we identify with these people. Normally, they are praised. They are worshipped. They are seen as the maximum, the ideal for everybody to get.
So the owners of the banking systems and the multinational companies, they deal with millions and billions. And where does this money come from? From the workers, from us that are common people. And we are not as crazy as they are to do what they do. So we still preserve some degree of sanity to be able to work inside reality and produce the goodness or the materials,
Richard: the goods, the
Cláudia: goods that they used to take profit for them, you know.
So we produce works of arts, less and less, because more and more we are working for computer systems and to count their money and more and more to produce for them, for their
Richard: companies. I was talking about this with a couple of students this morning, executives, Cláudia, that I teach, have been teaching for a number of years now. And, you know, they're accomplished guys, but they're ordinary executives.
They're not these sort of big, powerful. They work within their company. They work hard to build a business here. They're from Spain and France, but they're here building a business as much Brazilian as they can. They seem quite ethical in this sense. And we were lamenting this fact. I have many other students who are engineers, and they're not working as engineers. They're working in the banks because that's where the money is, you know.
And I was saying it's like the society has become this huge funnel. And there's 7 billion people in this funnel. Less the really psychotic ones at the top, I guess, all being funneled into the same stream, which is to make money for corporations, to make money for paying taxes, to throw $700, $800 billion to the banks who created all this disaster economic system.
We're all working for a system that's totally crazy. And who's driving that is the people, particularly at the top. We have our part to play in that, of course, But there's not much option for people, you know. People coming out of university think, well, I've got to survive. What am I going to do? I'm an engineer, a qualified engineer, but I guess I'll go to work for a bank because that's where I'll make money.
And so we're losing huge aspects of human development because everything's being funneled into this crazy, psychotic thing of pharmaceuticals and chemicals and military-industrial complex. And where's the development into art and science, true art and science now that improves the value of society and it's not happening. And both of them were saying, it's like, that's really true. It's like, one of my students said, but I can't think about that too much, I'll get depressed.
I said, but we need to think about that. We need to ask these questions and who are we
Cláudia: working for? And the biggest, the biggest, one of the biggest inversions that Dr. Keppe discovered, because he discovered the inversion process, which is the consequence of this theomania. In this inversion process, we see everything that is divine as less, as poor, sometimes as false, non-existent, as illusionary, like the value of being good, the value of being humanitarian, the value of beauty, for instance.
Even love. We are so much suspicious about the validity of the feelings of love. And what runs the world, literally runs the world, makes everything run, is the energy of love. I don't mean the libido's love or the sexual love, this passion. I mean feelings of love that exist in every human's inner life and bodies and souls and beings because the body is the manifestation of the soul.
Richard: Ideals that drive the accomplishment of
Cláudia: something. Yes. So what is in the basis is this good emotion of love. So you love and then you think, how am I going to do in order to accomplish this good? Because in order to love, you need a subject, an
Richard: area of action, right? You need something to love.
Cláudia: No, this is the object.
Richard: But the person who loves, how do you say this in English?
The lover.
Cláudia: O sujeito, we say in Portuguese. Okay, like a subject.
Richard: The one who does the action. Right.
Cláudia: How do you... I
Richard: need to learn this word. This would
Cláudia: be the doer, the actor, I guess. Because the concept of love is dual, requires a resonance from one subject to the other one, from one individual to the... Coming and going. Right? Individual or a dog or a work of art.
But you need to love in order to do a resonance with this object. And this, when you do this, your mind, your intelligence starts to work together. The left side of the brain has to be in resonance with the right side of the brain, and in resonance having love and truth, love and reason working together in order to do a good work, a valid work, an important work, a necessary work, a work of art, a work of science.
So, if you don't love, what you think will be useless, will be a lie, will be like deception. Ephemeral
Richard: even, it won't have substance.
Cláudia: Yes, that's what the powerful do. They just lie. They just manipulate people. They manipulate numbers. And the results are what we are facing nowadays.
Richard: You know, Cláudia, in my class on the weekend, one of my students said, "Richard this is really nice to talk about this, we were talking about the uh what the what the Keppe motor is bringing, which is the the opening of technology to this universal field of energy, yeah, uh divine emanation even, we were talking about this." And she said, "Richard it's really nice to talk about this to class, i love it, i'd love to come here, but you know when i go back out into the real world, uh you know," and that's the
Cláudia: inversion,
Richard: because when they say "when i go back to the real
world," so this is an inversion, when i go away from the real true world and i go back to the fantastic or the the sick structure, and when i go back to this theomaniac world, to the psychotic world which is false,
Cláudia: then I feel horrible, but
Richard: that's the real world.
I think that's the real world because of my inversion. And so I have to, how
Cláudia: do I fit in to that horrible, it's
Richard: a terrible dilemma for people.
Cláudia: This is the present situation and we cannot deny this. We have to understand what is going on now. We have a science, a trilogical science to understand and to explain what, why do we feel so bad in this planet, why we feel so uncomfortable, so unhappy, why so many people have depression, panic attacks and many diseases.
So now we have the understanding of the root causes of all of this. I
Richard: think you alluded a few minutes ago, maybe in our first segment, to the fact that we maybe in this segment that we don't give value to what's important, what's really important, we don't do that. And so we we're caught in this bind because we know that this false reality that we see around us is not real.
It doesn't make us feel good, doesn't make us feel healthy, it doesn't help us to raise our children to have a better life. But because we don't give value to goodness and truth and beauty, these things you're talking about, then we're lost now, because we don't give value to that. So now we have to go into that world
Cláudia: and it causes tremendous stress, doesn't it.
We have to have another break because I would like to speak a little bit more about envy, Richard, in our everyday life. Good. And this being satisfied because this is an example that we face that many, many clients bring. They cannot feel satisfied with anything because if they are, if they go to the beach, they think about the mountains. If they go to a new city, they think that they might feel better in another town.
If they are in a hotel, they just pay attention to what is not well in the hotel. If they go to a restaurant, the food is never good enough for them. So this is something that I would like to speak more about.
Richard: Good. We'll do that when we come back.
Richard Lloyd Jones, I'm back with my guest, special guest, Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco, in just a moment.
The audience is listening to Positive World Radio, the authentic voice of planet Earth.
Richard: We are back, Richard Lloyd Jones, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network with Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco, and you were alluding before the break to this thing of never being satisfied.
I think probably all of us can relate to that. Yeah. A few minutes
Cláudia: ago, I was attending a client and she was saying that when she's in Sweden, she's always thinking about and wondering, when I'm going back to Brazil, I will be able to participate in those beautiful, beautiful meetings we have. Sometimes with Dr. Keppe, and reading, having reading groups, and this is so enlightening and so inspirational.
And here I am, I came from Sweden, and I am at the side of the beach, and sunny beach, and so beautiful, tropical country, and my town was already 10 below zero with snow, and I was shivering. And here I am in this beautiful paradise and having this incredible, enlightening conversations. And then I start feeling like sleepy. And I can't understand what is going on because the more beautiful the subject and interesting the subject becomes, the more sleepy I become.
And she started to say, what is going on? So I was able to verify that every time I am in a situation where it's too much beauty for me to take in, like in an opera house or in a concert or too much consciousness or in a church, in a service, beautiful service, I start yawning and getting like, oh my God, I'm
Richard: becoming
Cláudia: like restless.
And this is what I can name inversion and envy, she said. I can feel that in my cells. I can feel that in my body and I regret so much because I'm not able to overcome this yet. So seeing the envy is so important. Because of this, because uh if she would not realize that this is the result of her envy, she would say "well if i'm feeling sleepy probably i would feel better in another situation," and then she would go shopping or she would go having an ice cream or she would go chatting nonsense with someone or even fighting, and then she would be like wakening up because of her inversion, because we are not used to the true energy.
This
Richard: is hard to understand, Cláudia. Dr Keppe says in the very first line of his great book the origin of illness, which is in english by the way for you listening, he's the very first line says "goodness is always difficult to accept." And you know i show that to my students and my students read it and they don't they don't react and i say "wait a minute."
Dr. Keppe is saying here that goodness is hard to accept. Is that true? People go, oh, they wake up a little bit for a second, you know, they stop worrying about how they're pronouncing the words in English and start thinking, wait a minute, is goodness difficult to accept? And of course, the immediate response is no, of course not. I want goodness. I want happiness.
Everybody thinks that, you know, everybody wants to be happy. It's in the American constitution, the right to the pursuit of happiness. So everybody thinks that happiness is a natural state and that everybody wants happiness. Dr Keppe's work tells us exactly the opposite, and as difficult as this to understand is to understand, it's crucial to understand it. How do you how do you explain that, how do you yeah define
Cláudia: that for people.
Another thing is another example, if you if you date a person for a long time but you can't be with that person uh like all the time, so when you get married what starts to happen, you start thinking oh but this is not this person is not as interesting as I thought, the relationship starts to get boring,
Richard: boring,
Cláudia: and so unsatisfaction takes the relationship like takes over, and you start seeing and looking for other people, and maybe that one or maybe those one, and feeling attracted as you felt before towards your husband or your wife, then you will feel towards another person because you imagine, you wonder that that person would have better qualities that you would enjoy better.
So this is envy too, Richard. This is envy too. It's a form of envy because envy is not an attitude of wanting or wishing what you don't have. It's the attitude of denying the good that you already have. So it's the incapability to... Enjoy the good. So, it's much more difficult to endure happiness than to endure suffering and pain.
Richard: Roche Foucault said that, didn't he?
Cláudia: Roche Foucault said that before Keppe.
Richard: French philosopher. He said that it's much easier to sustain evil than good fortunes. More or
Cláudia: less. The most difficult thing for a person is to sustain happiness. And so this is true, this we see in sick people, and that's why probably children fight so much their parents, especially good parents, and thinking that
Richard: they're bad parents,
Cláudia: thinking they're bad parents.
They go against their teachers, they're going against their best friends, even
Richard: against education. What's the point of
Cláudia: learning? What's the point of studying if you want to do a test? Write down in a paper what are the most necessary, important things you should be doing in your life. And if you put like a list, number one, number two, number three, you will see that the most necessary thing you reject the most.
Yeah. And you find time to do anything that is useless every day. But you will never find time to do what you really need to do in order for you to develop. Yeah.
Richard: We have done this many times with students, Cláudia, and the list is always fascinating. Because if you ask people what they most love to do, what they take, you know, what they look forward to doing, it's always, there are oftentimes wonderful things, traveling and reading and you know, but they're always almost always things that are kind of like secondary, an extra thing.
And the things that are essential to study, to develop discipline, to work, these are the, we never, that's never on the list, almost never on the list.
So it shows this inverted idea that we have, this desire,
Cláudia: don't we imagine heaven as, as a very boring place?
Richard: Yeah, there's
Cláudia: nothing. And people don't imagine always hell as spicy, isn't it?
Richard: That's true,
Cláudia: that what is forbidden is
Richard: tasty, they're forbidden fruits,
Cláudia: yes, yeah. But this is the idea we have because in practice things are upside down. So everything that we do we feel attracted to, very much attracted.
If you, if you go and if we go and we see and look more in depth and if we experiment, sometimes the results are really the opposite of what we expected, and then pain and suffering comes very heavily, yeah, very heavily. You can see drugs, you can see alcohol, you can see smoking, you can see anything that is exciting, and then the results will be very painful, very sick and balanced.
So we want
Richard: kind of the behavior without the bad results, right? We want to do the bad thing with that, but the bad results, then we start to repent, you know, yeah, we say you know, God,
Cláudia: I'll never drink again, you know, everybody's had that experience, you know. And this is a lie because we want the, we want the pleasure of the secondary activity, the things that aren't good for us, but the, the life of seriousness, dedication, this may be the most important thing I learned here in Brazil is that to have a life of, uh, to have a serious life, a life of dedication takes work.
Discipline.
Richard: Discipline, looking at your
Cláudia: problems. Sacrifice. Sacrifice. Yeah. Not because this work in itself is
Richard: like this, but because of our resistance. Exactly, exactly.
Cláudia: To overcome our resistance requires such a huge sweating and effort and sacrifice. So our listeners don't need to discourage, to get discouraged if they have so many problems because this is the common place like everybody has.
Richard: And so to overcome that takes, one, I think, it's very easy to say because we come from North American background and say, well, I have to stop doing that.
I have to get more disciplined. I have to get more organized. All these things are true, but first we have to see why we're so disorganized, why we're so out of sync because if the true state of man is goodness, truth, and beauty, and total fulfillment, and this total universe of accomplishment. Why aren't we anywhere near that is a serious problem. That's right.
Because our true nature is that, right?
Cláudia: That's right, Mr. Jones, and these are the good news. As soon as we get back to the right track, through conscientization, becoming conscious, we are still in this divine basis, like relying on a divine structure, so everything that is by itself is divine, up to a moment when we decide like to deny, to destroy. If, if we stop denying, destroying, we will be already inserted in all divine reality, we will be back in paradise.
And that's what we see with the majority of people who accept to do this,
Richard: yeah, a lot more accomplishment, a lot more happiness and health, health, better relationships
Cláudia: and diseases being healed, and better, better relationships and even happiness, imagine
Richard: that, enjoying life really,
Cláudia: this is
Richard: the promise.
Yeah, we have a couple of minutes left, could we invite people to join us here, is that too much do you think for our, our program to just put that out
Cláudia: there, that no, we should invite people
Richard: to come and to, and to write us and to send emails and to ask and to participate, and don't be shy, and because we are all together and there is not such a thing as I'm the sick or I'm the only or I the problems I suffer, it's they are only mine, I'm ashamed, no, we are suffering the same thing.
And look, I'm really available for you to write to me and give you some guidance on what you can do. We have psychoanalysis available by phone. We have incredible trilogical enterprises here. We have educational opportunities all the time. Reading
Cláudia: groups.
Richard: We have reading groups.
Cláudia: Yes, in English. Many options. By Skype, by Internet. We have courses by Internet. We have teleclasses by Internet. So this is something that we invite you all to participate and to join us.
Richard: Yeah, because what's happening here, I can tell you really truthfully, is a revolution in every area of human endeavor. Well,
Cláudia: if you have any problems, economic problems, health, relationships, spiritual, just ask, and we will do the best to answer your questions.
Richard: Thank you very much for joining us, Cláudia. It's been wonderful to have you
Cláudia: here. Thank you, Richard. Bye-bye.
Richard: Bye-bye. Great pleasure. Our program is called Thinking with Somebody Else's Head because we're learning to think in a different way. So we're trying to think not with the heads of other people but with our own heads, now in alignment with this new true reality that Cláudia is talking about, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
My personal email if you want to write me, I'd be very happy to talk to you, is joneshealing at gmail.com, and we would love to hear from you and have your participation in any way you want, it would be wonderful to do that, and we're very excited to be here with you on the Positive World Radio Network. I invite you to join us every week, downloading our programs is very therapeutic and you're more than welcome to do that, our books, our radio programs, all of the resources that we have we make available to you so you can begin to have some understanding too, of the true nature of human beings and how we're meant to live on the planet.
Richard Lloyd Jones, I will talk to you again next time here on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Great to talk to you. The
audience is listening to Positive World Radio, the authentic voice of planet Earth.
