Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones and welcome to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. You know, as I watch the gathering force of the Occupy and Liberation of the People movements around the world, I've been considering the impact of power in human life. Lincoln talked about how you could test a man's character by giving him power, and we can all use that to slag the visible power brokers that stalk the halls of power.
These are the front men, the mouthpieces for the new world order. But I've been reflecting on how to bring the light to bear on the power behind the throne. For this is certainly the most urgent need. Eisenhower warned us about the acquisition of unwarranted influence by the military-industrial complex back in the 50s, and this was prescient. But many other of the more ethical front men in history have warned us about a scarier and more dangerous power, financial control by the private banks.
Rothschild, maybe the biggest financial manipulator of them all, once clarified it for us. Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes its laws, he said. Chilling stuff for any who study Norberto Keppe's The Pathology of Power. Liberation from socioeconomic power today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We are really working hard to bring consciousness of this. We've made Norberto Keppe's call to action from his seminal analysis of the pathology of power, Liberation of the People.
We've made that little section available in many forms today as a printable PDF document, as an email you can send to your social network, and even in the book itself, all of that available on our site at HealingThroughConsciousness.com. We'll consider many facets of this great book in our program today. But first, from the field, Gilbert Gambucci, my dear friend, is in New York as we speak, attending the Occupy Wall Street movement every day, talking to people, handing out copies of Norberto Keppe's Call to Action from his Liberation of the People.
I think even handing out some books to people who are interested and really, I think, providing some essential leadership there for the Occupy Wall Street movement. And Gilbert, maybe you could just sort of give us the testing of the temperature, give us the overview. What are your impressions there? You've been there for two or three weeks now. Just give us a kind of a sketch of how you see the situation there, and then we'll get to some more specific questions.
Yeah, you
Gilbert Gambucci: know, Rich, the thing that surprised me the most is how many people come through the occupation, both nationally and internationally. It's a magnet for people who are concerned about the injustices of the world. They're going there to the Occupy Wall Street. It's kind of a center of this now, this kind of activity. And the support is overwhelming to keep the occupiers there because people all over the country are agreeing with this quite contrary to what the uh the mainstream media shows you know mainstream media rich they show up there they look for the weirdest guy they could find and then they do an interview with him extensively you know a screamer or just somebody who's completely out of his mind and you know it's just it's so nasty it's so uh it's they're incredible you know but there are independent media people from all over the states um i've been talking to people from vermont and they bring things also a couple from vermont vermont they brought maple syrup for example for the occupiers there was a woman for from kentucky she um actually brought tears to my eyes because she brought gloves for everybody she was concerned about the occupiers and uh i've been speaking with people from boston from uh san francisco los angeles baltimore um people from ottawa in canada uh all over the place i can't even remember ohio and even internationally i got I'm very surprised that I was interviewed by Radio Russia, the man from Radio Russia.
And he was very interested in what was going on. And he really, he understood that our analysis and solution was really a solution. He was an intelligent man. He was very interested in Dr. Keppe's work, our scientifically based work. And, you know, if I could just, let's see, just by memory, just complete the list. I I've been visited by the occupation. I've met people from uh Estonia, people from India, uh people from Sweden, from Italy, from France, from England, uh from Turkey, from uh Iran, can you believe that, people from Iran, uh people from uh in South America, Argentina, Colombia.
And these are just the people that just by chance I met in this, because I I stand in the in the middle of the square distributing uh literature. And uh most of the people of course I don't get to meet, so just to give an idea of the magnitude of people.
And um I've met people uh rich like more or less our age uh who say to me look I have a family I'm working and I have a family I can't come here to be with you, but I just want you to know that everybody that I know knows what's going on at Occupy Wall Street, and everybody supports you. You know, so when you hear that type of thing, suddenly the cold doesn't make too much of a difference anymore, you know.
Richard: Yeah, you don't feel the cold so much. And what is it they're supporting, Gilbert? When they say that they're supporting, they all know what's going on. What is it that they know is going on, and what is it that they're in
Gilbert: support of? Well, you've got an interesting question there now, because the um let's say the the general factor of why people are there are for various types of injustices, it's basically injustice. And everybody has their own injustice that they want to raise their voice about, and everybody has their own solution to that as well.
And so in a certain sense it's it looks like a disorder, unorganized, but the underlying fact is that people can't stand any longer the degree of injustice that we're suffering as a society, and basically that's it, you know. And it's kind of an energetic thing, you can see that, and well if people from all over the world and from all over the states are going there, it's more than just curiosity, there's an energetic factor involved.
People have been pressed uh too far, rich people have been marginalized from society too far. And one of the
Richard: things one of the things I think we were talking about Gilbert that I think it was important, we had our teleclass on Tuesday night that we do every Tuesday night, you and I. And in that, we were talking a lot about, particularly you, about the fact that there's a lot of focus and maybe too much focus on the political corruption and not enough focus yet on the economic power issue.
And so maybe you could just address that now to let people know who are listening. What is the difference in the way we're seeing this problem here from Analytical Trilogy perspective and the way many people are seeing it there in the United States?
Gilbert: Yes, it's so common for people to go after the politicians because they're in public view, you know, and the media wants to really show how corrupt they are because, you know, they are so fascinated with economic power to the point where they're willing to sell their souls so they can buy a yacht or whatever.
You know it's kind of pathetic, you know, and so people get very focused on that, but our focus is different because they're not the direct, they're not the the source of the problem. The source of the problem is the economically powerful people, these bankers, and there's nothing they would like more than for the people to rise up against the politicians, because they're all set to replace the politicians with their technocrats, you know, so that they could rule with even more of an iron hand.
And we're speaking from a scientifically based uh since 1986 we've been studying the pathology of these people, you know, the the pathology of power. In fact dr Keppe's book Liberation of the People is as a study about this, it's a historic book because there's never been one about the study of the psychopathology of these people with economic power. And so he differentiates between economic power and political power, because the problem is that these international bankers and these powerful people around them, they are dominating the political sector.
You know, they are dominating not only economy, but all of society, all aspects of society, it took them a number of years to get to that point, but they did, and so they are the problem, you know, the not the politicians directly. So we've got to focus on the real problem, otherwise um the situation will continue. You know we'll attack the politicians and then the powerful people behind the scenes they go scot-free and continue to control, yeah, because
Richard: they're in control now anyway.
So this is very, very clear. I was saying to you off air before we started the program, I was watching a Canadian documentary on the weekend. And this young kid put together a very cool documentary about Canada, our bought and sold out land, just to give him a bit of a plug there. And he was showing that there's in the actual system, in terms of real money in the system in Canada.
In the year that he did this documentary, a few years ago now, he said about $50 billion was actually circulating in terms of real money in the system. Of that $50 billion, $4 billion belonged to the banks as reserves. So $4 billion was actually in the bank reserves, but they loaned out $1.5 trillion on that $4 billion ballast, you know. And so this is like almost a 300% profit margin, if you want to look at it in business terms, that they are then earning interest, compound interest on.
So they're earning compound interest plus principal on $1.5 trillion of money that does not exist in the real system. It's a totally fantasy world. It's the fictitious society Dr. Keppe's talking about. Boy, this really needs to be understood, Gil. But I think most people don't have any idea about that.
Gilbert: And the interest that people are paying back on these loans that were just, as you were explaining, paper, this money is real money because it's money that people are working for to pay back the bankers.
So it's a trick. Richard, this brings us to our solution. And this is kind of brilliant in Dr. Keppe's analysis because it seems kind of simple, But if you really look at it, if you really study it, it goes to the heart of how to take the economic control out of these bankers, out of the powerful people. What are the techniques, what are the tools that they use to enslave not only individuals who get enslaved through these exorbitant interest rates, but also companies, industries, and even nations?
You know, the United States is enslaved. We're in debt to these international bankers. So there's a point here that we've got to consider. Usury in the past, in many different cultures, it was considered to be highly immoral, absolutely unethical, and in the end, destructive to society. You know, you can't have usury without destroying society. So if it was immoral in the past, what about today?
It's not immoral. And what about in the future, if it was immoral in the past it's immoral now and it will always be immoral. And so the question is this, why do people continue to recognize or to agree with the system of usury that is enslaving humanity, this is the question. So who is the dishonest person, the person who goes along with this process of usury or the person who puts his foot down and says wait a minute.
I'm not going to corrupt myself. I'm not going to plunge my country, my company, my person into debt for a process that is highly, just highly immoral. What is this? So
Richard: Dr. Kempi's proposal here is a phenomenal one to actually stop the charging of interest rates. You know, I saw I saw a clip from Obama recently in one of the programs that I follow on Real Econ TV and Real Economics.
And they showed a little clip of Obama talking about the problem with the situation on Wall Street. He said that no laws were broken. He said it may have been immoral, it may have been greedy, but it didn't break the law. And right away, if we analyze this, we can see that what he's saying is that the laws are immoral. If the practices they did were immoral, but they didn't break a law, then the law is immoral.
So this question of what Dr. Keppe is dealing with here, and you're talking about the immorality of usury, I think this is a fundamental point, Gilbert. How's that going over with the people you talk with there?
Gilbert: Well, you know, there's a mentality that people have that you need the powerful people. You need these little small group of psychotic multi-trillionaires, you know, and it's incredible.
You know, as they've implemented this system of usury over a number of years, people think that you need that, you know, and not the fact that if you stopped paying a company, for example, stopped paying interest, immediately that company would become wealthy. Because they would retain the money that, instead of sending it to the bankers, they would augment their capital to such a degree that they wouldn't even need loans.
You know, they can just use and work in reality with the capital that people are producing.
Richard: It's a beautiful idea. The Itaú Bank, one of the big banks in Brazil, has just released their third quarter profits. So in the first three quarters of 2011, they're declaring 10 billion reais, that's about 6 billion Canadian dollars, in profit for the first nine months of 2011.
I think that is, imagine what people could do with that kind of money inside the society, Gilbert, instead of being taken out of the society and given to the 1%. Yes,
Gilbert: that money is our money. It belongs to the people who worked for it. You know, there's another point here, Rich, directly linked to this, and that is usury is legal. You know, these powerful people, they've managed to, as they dominate the politicians and the media, they've managed to get it so that they can act in this way legally.
And, you know, it's against the fundaments of our Constitution of the United States. It's against all of the objectives and principles of the founding fathers that the media be dominated by anybody. They've spoke about this a lot, that the public media, it's the social consciousness. So that has to be independent. It has to be free to perform as it sees fit. And as they've bought out the media, these powerful people, that's absolutely anti-American and anti-citizen of the world to do that.
And there's another point here, is that, you know, through this use of usury, they've amassed enormous amounts of money to themselves, a small group of international bankers with all of this money. And, you know, they don't go away, of course. This is a fundamentally in opposition to our founding fathers, who really they founded what they did on the principle that you can't have a dominating person or class of people perpetually in power, you know, at that time it was the the royalty, you know, the king of the king of England.
At that they just saw these royal families, it passes from one generation to another and it's despotism.
So you can't have this, you can't have a class of people perpetually in power, that's why in our political system we have a rotation, that's why we have voting, and that's why even we have this idea of Montesquieu where we divide the political sector into three parts, you know, the legislative, executive, judicial, to spread out the power, you know, because you can't have an accumulation of power and it can't be there perpetually, you know, otherwise you you have despotism.
And nowadays what we have is this economically powerful people, they're there all the time amassing enormous sums of money dominating the political sector, and the founding father said you can't have this, so this is why we don't have liberty
Richard: nowadays. Beautifully said Gilbert, you'll keep us posted, i know you will, we're going to call on you almost every program now to give us a report from Occupy Wall Street, especially as you have some leadership to provide in Dr.
Keppe's work in giving it to them, letting them know about this great science that can really help us to understand this situation and what to do about it to change it, to turn it right side up again. So thanks a lot for your report. It's great to
Gilbert: hear from you. Okay, Rich, anytime.
Richard: Let's talk about it. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is on Conscious Planet Radio.
We're back in just a moment. The program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head that we're broadcasting from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo, Brazil. Richard Lloyd Jones is my name. We're on the Conscious Planet Radio Network on iTunes, on our website at Heated Through Consciousness. And we have some new stuff there, too. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco is joining me again.
Because, how to put this sort of in context, Dr. Keppe wrote a book in the 80s, you've heard me talk about this many times in the program, called Liberation of the People, the Pathology of Power. What he calls the first study of the psychosocial pathology of people with power, psychotics, this word i love, psychotics who are impeding human development and destroying society.
If we don't stop them immediately we will witness the rapid demise of civilization. Dr Keppe wrote this book in the mid 80s, the book was paid a lot of attention to at the beginning and then the the powers that be swarmed down like a group of locusts and completely destroyed the movement that was happening in New York at the time. So, Cláudia, we want to talk about that today because I feel in this book there is a science that's really important for activists to understand.
If they understand this, maybe we can really bring about a new society. Without this, I think it will be very difficult.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: It will be like the other times. One group takes over another group, and then the same pathology of power takes over again and again.
Richard: It's always usurped somehow, and so we have the experience. Sometimes I think that it's like we're just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
You know, the boat is going down and all we're doing is moving the furniture around. And we want to do more than that this time. So in this book, I was telling Dr. Keppe this a couple of weeks ago, he knows this already, but I found the first reference that I've come across in English to the 99% and the 1%. To my knowledge, there is no prior reference to this than his book written in 1986.
It says there's three or four, five, maybe five places in the book where this statistic appears. It was used by Michael Moore in his documentary about capitalism. And sort of the Occupy Wall Street movement has taken that on as like a mantra for them. But I don't think they understand where it really comes from, you know.
Cláudia: And this movement started in this book.
Yeah, this is so, so, like it's bringing hope. I'm very enthusiastic now to see how the work that we have developed and the sacrifice we did or whatever, and the work and hard work and sweating of many, many, because we had the help of others in the United States and in the world. So this was not really totally covered up. So this continued, like it was passed mouth, person to person, by mouth or by whatever.
Well, it's there. It's growing. It's flourishing.
Richard: In a way, it must be a great pleasure for you to see it sort of coming around. For sure. For
Cláudia: sure. And for Dr. Keppe, too. For sure.
Richard: In this book, Dr. Keppe writes, And yet we, the people, are in the majority. We are 99%, controlled in a sick manner by 1%. We are the strength and true power divine on this earth.
Do not lose hope. We will soon be free. Believe in yourselves and in our forthcoming liberation. We need only to become conscious of present-day injustice and begin working for ourselves, living in our own societies societies under a social structure which serves us, not the sick powers that be. The people realize they are unhappy. They know that profound social transformation is needed, but they do not know how to achieve it.
What we are proposing is precisely this fundamental change so that civilization can take its true course. Well, that's a paragraph he could have written yesterday. Yes. And he wrote 20-some-odd years ago.
Cláudia: Yes. And you know something, Jones? The other weekend, last weekend, we were discussing about this idea that we, the people, have that it's normal to be controlled by the powerful 24 hours a day.
And so we understand that this is normal. We need police. We need persecutors. We need prosecutors, we need
Richard: military, we need
Cláudia: inspectors, we need cameras on every corner, rulers
Richard: and cameras,
Cláudia: that this is normal. We do not acknowledge that we should be controlling and observing and investigating everything that the powerful do. People should be the agency to control the people in power, you understand that, not the
Richard: opposite.
Cláudia: You remember what
Richard: we were we were discussing very clear that we have this in mind, that this is normal, this should be like this, and we never think that we need agencies, people's agencies, like the we have here in Brazil, a covisa and an visa, it's an agent of um, and visa is like is the Brazilian Food and
Cláudia: Drug Administration. Kind of.
So they are always fining, putting fines on everybody and taking
Richard: money and
Gilbert: taking money and the fines. We have millions of kinds of fines in Brazil. And they are always like when you know something, when we take a car to ride a car and have like a promenade on a weekend. So you drive your car in a highway in Brazil. But you are
Richard: all the time being observed, controlled, fined, paying for tolls.
And you have many holes on the, like, the roads are not really taken care of.
So you have to observe if there are not people coming to attack you and kidnap you or steal your money or attack you somehow. Or the police, they will stop you at any time to say, okay, so show your documents, so as if we are all the time being controlled as if we were criminals.
And also you buy a good car with good mechanics,
Gilbert: so your car shows there that you can go up to 200 miles per hour or something, but you cannot go over 40 miles or 35 miles in some areas. So this
Cláudia: is, and if you do, you will be fined. And if you are fined four or five times, you lose your license, your permit to drive.
Richard: So you can't enjoy your weekend anymore. You absolutely cannot enjoy your weekend. And that's what we saw also in the United States. Everything prohibited. Everything, don't step out or no trespassing. Don't do this. No running. No do that. No running. No pushing. No swimming. No, nothing, no jumping
Cláudia: in the water in the parks, and everything is being controlled all the time. So we are surveilled as if we were criminals all the time.
So this thing that we are innocent until it's proven the opposite, it's a big lie. It's a big lie. We are considered as criminals and if we need to prove otherwise. This is a
Richard: one of my students, a beautiful young girl, young girl, 26 years old, a skinny sweet girl, was just just went to New York, and of course while she was there going through the airport she had to go, she was asked to go through the x-ray machine.
And I was telling her, I said, but but why did you accept that? She said, well well we have to. I said, no you don't have to, you can say no. They will come and they'll touch all over your body in a terrible way. But but the other thing I thought was, and I said to my students, but does this look like a terrorist in any way?
Does this look like a person who is dangerous in society? Of course not. She's a normal girl, she's a sweet girl who wants to go to New York to have a vacation with her mother, and you know and see the sights and go to the theater and go to Central Park, the normal things. What is this person being uh treated like? It has
Cláudia: been a long time that we lost our freedom and we got used to that way of living, which is inferno, it's demonic.
Yeah, it's like being in a prison 24 hours a day, inside home, outside home, any place, in any place, even in our um in our psychoanalytical clinics with this guy with this kind of investigations they do, because they want to determine what kind of furniture you're going to use in your office because there must be as similar as possible as
Gilbert: a hospital.
So I have some psychotic patients and when
Richard: they knew that things should change because of the inspectors in the way I decorated my office, which is beautifully decorated by
Cláudia: the way, it's beautiful, it's wow, everybody liked
Richard: it, it's very similar to
Cláudia: Freud's by the way.
And he said, my God, I feel so bad now with the idea that I'll be doing analysis in a place that is controlled by these guys and reminds me the the time I spent in hospital, mental hospital, which was the most terrible, infernal experience I ever had in my life.
So only the idea of changing the decoration of my room caused like a crisis in my patient.
Cláudia: Imagine what are they doing against the people. So now, now we are founding a new agency, the agency of the people to control the powerful. Great. And I want you to tell your friends, we want to fix this also in English because we have it already in Portuguese in our site, so people could come in and make complaints against the abuse of powerful and the abuse of the laws the powerful did at their only, their own and only favor.
Yeah. Tell the story. Against the people, the common sense, nature, happiness, our rights of human beings, our civil rights, our human rights.
Richard: So let's give some examples. People could, if they have a problem with the income tax, people they feel is unjust, they could go to this website, call in, write in, let us know about it, we'll post it
Cláudia: there. Of course, not only that, but all the corruption
Richard: is going on.
Traffic ticket they
Cláudia: don't deserve. All the corruption. The powerful are running. They are stealing the money of the people. And this is beautiful to see that in Wall Street they are manifesting. The bankers are the biggest thieves of all, and they are stealing the money of the people, which belongs to the people, which was done and provided by hard work of the people and sacrifice.
So they are huge thieves, criminals. So when Keppe put that they were psychotic and psychopaths, that's what they are, especially the financial and this big shots elite. They are the sickest ones.
Richard: Let me just tell you a quick thing here before our break, Cláudia, that you can respond to. What I've noticed with certain students, students who are maybe more highly placed in the organization or more sort of successful in the society, they have a big difficulty with this idea that the leaders are psychotic.
It's not an easy thing for them to accept. We have some friends in the United States who have the same difficulty. It's like almost too much to admit that. And so I really want to talk about that because I think that's one of the fundamental points that needs to be made in this current situation. As Dr. Kempi says here, these are psychotics.
These people are like the worst of the society, not the best. And this is a very different point of view from what we normally think.
Cláudia: Yeah, it's all totally upside down because those, any individual who is too sick and don't want to recognize their arrogance, their greediness, their megalomania, their egotism, their narcissism, which is envy, which is the basic sickness in human beings, those who do not want to recognize, either they get severely sick mentally or organically, or they are placed in power because they are starving for power.
They do everything they do since they are waking up in the morning until they go to bed. And even during the night, they keep like thinking and scheming how
Richard: to become
Cláudia: more powerful, how to manipulate other people to get more power. And if you want to get like on the top, you must play such a game of corruption and lying and dishonesty to deceive people and to play the cards of the powerful that you must be totally unethical to get there at the present moment.
Because if you are ethical, you will not get there. That's true. And lack of ethics is the basis of psychosis. The attachment to money and to power is a sign of sickness not only in the people in power but they socialize their mental sickness. They have the chance to release to accomplish to you know to put all
Richard: in society and so they don't get in crisis.
But if they are stopped they will get
Cláudia: into a psychotic crisis very soon or they get sick very soon very rapidly if they are prevented of exerting their power in society. So if you have a member in your family, the sickest will be the most paranoid, the person who will be like, I want to do my will, I want to put everybody to work for me, and I will control everything, and I'll do not my best for others, but I'll put everything under my own interest to preserve my own wishes, etc., etc.
Richard: And they'll see everything as
Cláudia: an attack against them. Yeah, and if you go to a mental hospital, you will see there
Richard: Napoleons, Jesus Christ, Ronald Reagan, Marilyn Monroe, very powerful people, but never, ever a humble person inside a mental hospital. Let's take a quick break. We're coming back in a moment. This is a fascinating and very, very, very important discussion, so don't go away.
On Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on Conscious Planet Radio, we're back in just a moment. The program Thinking with Somebody Else's Head our website and we have lots of new stuff up there for you by the way including a project we're going to be talking about in a moment with Cláudia bernhard presheko our call to action he's all posted up there some excerpts from Liberation of the People this wonderful book we're sort of using as the inspiration for our show today all of that is there on our website at healing through consciousness.com and my personal email joneshealing at gmail.com love to hear from you about this Cláudia you were talking about this kind of um release maybe of the powerful it's like um this incredible tension or stress that builds up from the paranoia from the the need to exert my power that i don't it's not very comfortable so i have to create a situation in the society where i feel more comfortable this is what you're suggesting right so
Cláudia: they and they are worshipped they are legally worshipped they are legally they have people obeying them people serving them they can be as corrupt as they want they like they don't have any obstacles to prevent their delinquencies so they have a social condition to live their sickness.
And Keppe is very clear. He's very clear. And in this sense, he's totally, totally Christian. And he says, if you live a life for your own, just for your own interests, you are a psychotic. And if you want to have balance and health and and have a good quality of life and a mental balance, it's a must, even energetically speaking, it's a must to live our lives to do good for society, to other people.
It's like a come-and-go energy, flow of energy, psychological, spiritual, social, economic. This come-and-go must be the dialectic of humanity.
Richard: Now you've said something really interesting, because I'm thinking about our North American culture, particularly United States, which would be the pinnacle of me number one competitiveness, yeah, looking out for number
Cláudia: one being the the rule for development of enterprises and not cooperation, so this is ruining United States.
So
Richard: in a sense what you're suggesting then is that society that's been created has been to relieve alleviate the the terrible feelings that a person has who's psychotic, they create a society where at least they can feel a little bit more comfortable. So if we begin then to change that as you said, they're going to have a psychotic crisis. They're going to feel very bad in a new society with more Christian values as you talked about. They're going to feel totally out of place
Cláudia: there, like a fish out of water.
Yes, right. And if you see and if you read the stories of those uh tyrants and those powerful, every time they were confronted, really confronted, and they were held in their actions, held back, so they presented some kind of of crisis. Either they committed suicide or they became totally coward in their in their attitudes and they have a regression. They have a psychological regression, go
Richard: back like their children, yeah, thumb
Cláudia: in the mouth, curled up in a fetal position, yeah, and they isolate themselves. They start crying and being totally totally psychotic like
Richard: a temper
Cláudia: tantrum, manifest their
Richard: psychosis.
We saw this with um the last days of Hitler, this is very clear, you know when, howard
Cláudia: Hughes,
Richard: yes, who's who separated himself from society, look at that. So the the idea that we're we're um unbalanced, all of us have this unbalance, right, but you're suggesting that the people that want power, that they're scheming to get that, that they're they're worse in in this sense and
Cláudia: emotionally they are like a baby.
They scream to get what they want, the babies, and they want to be served by the whole family and society and everybody around them. So they scream to get what they want and the powerful do something similar but they have intelligence and physical power to do that and social economic power. So they are emotionally speaking very very
Richard: childish.
So our our friends around the world now who are rising up in all through the Arab world, we're seeing this. I was reading the other day that in China there's quite a movement in, it's very hidden because they're not permitted, but they have a lot of things going up through Twitter and these social networks, you know, about protest against the system there.
Obviously in North America this is a big movement now, we're seeing it even here in Brazil, Brazil a very passive country, people are starting to protest, people are camping outside and talking about the corruption. What is it that these people around the world most need to know to help
Cláudia: them this phenomena uh Richard that is going on now? It's a phenomenon that we could name not only a resonance effect.
It's a resonance. Everybody is resonating with a similar energy. So we are much more than 100 monkeys now. We are thousands and millions of human beings thinking similarly. So we have this resonance effect. But not only that, but what you see happening is that a similar phenomenon that happened to Pavlov that made this conditioning of dogs in his laboratory, the Russian psychologist.
And so he trained his dogs for months and years so they would obey him in many ways. So they were conditioned. And he was studying a similar effect on human beings. How to condition human beings, like an hypnotic effect. And not only that, but using prize and, I don't know how to say this in English, premio e castigo.
Richard: Crime and punishment. Crime
Cláudia: and punishment.
Premio and castigo.
Richard: Is it an award? ...and then a punishment,
Cláudia: like an electric shock. If they do, if one does what the powerful want, we have a kind of award. And if we don't, we have a punishment. So they want, they have been conditioning human beings and societies and whole peoples around this. And there is this wrong philosophy, educational philosophy of these British writers and John Locke and other empiricists, they understand that we learn from experience and we are like a tabula rasa.
Richard: Yeah, a blank slate, we say.
Cláudia: And people are to be taught. And if we are trained and conditioned and taught to be in some way, we will be true servers, true slaves, true robots. So it has been like this. But a similar thing that happened with Pavlov, there was a thunderstorm or a big rain that flooded his laboratory and the dogs suffered this flood inside their kennels.
Their kennels, yes. So they were immediately unconditioned, like they did not obey any longer Pavlov. So this shows that we have a structure, an energetic structure of our beings that really, really determines what we are, who we are, and how is it to be a human being.
Richard: And this is very different from instinct, which we would say the dogs were acting on instinct.
For human beings, it's a consciousness. Yes,
Cláudia: and we have also an unconscious structure, energetic structure, which is very powerful. So at any moment, very submissive people or beings or peoples can become totally different, like blow up to searching for liberation, because we cannot live as slaves forever.
Richard: No matter how we're conditioned.
Cláudia: No matter how, we have always coming back the wish to be free, the right to be free and happy, and do what is good, beautiful, and truthful.
Beautiful, beautiful. Because this is our essence. So peoples and peoples, even though they have been suffering for millennia, repression, they can turn in another dimension in an instant.
Richard: Return to their true universal essence nature.
Cláudia: Isn't this beautiful? Because it means that we're not victims now of this. Whatever has happened to us, we've all suffered. We are victims to some extent, but we can change now the world.
Richard: So what you're suggesting then is that what's moving in people is this universal current now of true freedom. And this is what kept you... Genuine freedom.
Cláudia: Genuine, right. Divine, divine wish for freedom. Because if you remember, Jones, all the prophets and Moses and the evangelists and Jesus Christ and all of the writers, the spiritual writers, what they were always writing about, about the Liberation of the People from the oppressive powerful.
If you read the Bible, you see there all the time the saying, these quotes, David and the prophets, and even Mary, when she knew about having the Messiah inside of her body, she was saying or praying or declaring the Magnificat, which is a declaration of liberation of the oppressed from the powerful. That her son would bring this liberation. And what happened is that when Jesus came, he was a true politician.
He wanted to do the divine politics in the planet and to prevent the evil powerful to crash the widows, the children, and the poor. And what happened is that the powerful in this planet and only the powerful did what they did against Jesus. And we have been having a similar syndrome since then. Every true Christian is crushed and oppressed.
Richard: Defined politics.
Cláudia: Not only Christian, but all the ones
Richard: who are divine in their actions, they're oppressed.
And Keppe's book, he says it in here that what's been missing has been the lack of a science that explains what you're talking about. And that now we have that science. So
Cláudia: only now can we really truly finish this movement for liberation that's been here for thousands of years. Only now can we do that. Yes, and also teach people how they must behave more like a balanced, in balance, otherwise they will imitate the powerful.
They learned a lot of their philosophy, of their own values. So people envy the powerful. They want to be, they want to have a similar life. They are not ready, like ready, ready, ready to be more balanced and build a divine society, but they are much more ready than the powerful.
Richard: If Dr. Keppe and you could speak to the people there now, what do you think Dr.
Keppe would want to say to them most, to the people who are protesting?
Cláudia: To trust. To trust that the people have the power. The true power is with the people. The people is ready to transform, to do this change, but the powerful don't let it go. They will not let it go. So trust in the power of consciousness, trust, we are the majority, we are we have the true power of consciousness with us.
And if we have the good intention to change and confront the the inverted laws and make them change and and declare we don't want anymore this demonic kingdom here, we want a divine kingdom in here, a free divine kingdom to work for ourselves and our fellow man, for our own good and our fellow man, and to be beautiful and to and to to have freedom for the artists, freedom for the scientists, freedom for the workers, for women, for Jews, for black, for everybody.
We the people have the power. What, that's great, it's like
Richard: it's like I feel like I'm listening to Martin Luther King, oh
Cláudia: my God, and I have to
Richard: do something in another language so I made my best, much more difficult. So this book then, Liberation of the People, we're making available, of course, always have made available on this program. You can write to me about that if you'd like a copy of the book.
But we have the call. And
Cláudia: it's for free.
Richard: I want to say that's for free. We don't want to make profits around this book. We want this book to be known and to be studied. Because it's been stopped. It's been blocked. It has not been permitted to enter the mainstream of people's
Cláudia: experience. The powerful one to cover up the
Richard: work. And we have now the call to action, this very inspirational paragraph, which called my attention and brought me to Brazil.
This paragraph has been adapted into a PDF document now that can be printed. And we would love people who are interested in this, who are really excited, to print this document and give it out to people. Give
Cláudia: it out, give it out,
Richard: fast, fast. Spread it every way you can.
Cláudia: We have not so much time left. No. And the powerful are planning something to cover up what is happening.
And they can do really nasty things to deviate from what is happening. And
Richard: they will be trying that soon. Yeah. So this is very, very important to get out. So please, if you're interested, if you're excited about what we're talking about, let's work together and get this message out there because this
Cláudia: is the science that's missing. And let's get together and have a lead for the associations and people interested in the Liberation of the People.
An agency to control the powerful.
Richard: Yes, and if you're looking for more ways to join us in our program of conscientization about the pathology of power, especially about how to get involved with us in spreading the word about Liberation of the People, our website at HealingThroughConsciousness.com is a great start. I would love to hear from you too of course, my email is joneshealing at gmail.com, our Facebook page is hungry for your participation too in Facebook, let's get a viral consciousness going.
Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is our Facebook page, please join us there. Contained within Keppe's work are real solutions along with an incisive analysis of how we got into this mess and what we need to get us out. We consider that every week on our program. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is produced at the International Society of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo, Brazil.
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Talk to you next week.
