Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. One of the most relevant themes we're focused on here in Brazil these days is the exploding movement for freedom reverberating around the world. Well, we're no different from everybody else, I guess. Martin Luther King stated that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor. It must be demanded by the oppressed.
And isn't it this demand that's echoing through all these diverse societies these days? And the oppressors, to echo King, are not giving up easily, as is being witnessed by Occupy activists everywhere. Dr. King, though, I don't think really understood why it has always been that way. What causes the oppressor to cling so tenaciously to power is not well understood or broadcast and needs to be.
Norberto Keppe's Science of Analytical Trilogy does just that. But the other side of the coin is that to be a fighter against the barbed wire of oppression takes some cojones. And it is this courage that must be summoned from deep inside us if we're to vanquish injustice once and for all. Standing up for truth today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We're mounting a huge initiative to get Norberto Keppe's science out into the world here at the 11th hour.
It feels like, I don't know about you, but to me, it feels like if we don't do it, it'll be very bad for us. It's now or never, is how we might put that. Keppe's book, Liberation of the People, The Pathology of Power, is like a manual for a peaceful, conscious revolution. I can't state this emphatically enough. If the best thinkers in our world really get what Keppe is talking about in this book, the way will be much clearer.
So please, do your part to spread this book.
You could, for example, spread that around through your social networks, spread it out through email, print it out and hand it out to people. It's available as a PDF document, so you could print that out. You could send it through Facebook or Twitter, email it to people.
Be creative and be active. It's very important that this information get out there to people so that we can really effect a meaningful and lasting change in our society. You know one of the things that still most surprises me? And I'm not that young a guy. What still gets me is the unquestioning support of war that exists in some people. The idea that here in the 21st century, war is sometimes necessary, that it needs to be defended and justified.
Now, I don't mean that we should dishonor the sacrifice of those who did go to war, of those who fought and died and suffered. I'm not suggesting that at all. My father and two of his brothers and one sister were there in World War II, and they are heroes to me, noble men and women, who risked their sacred lives for a cause they deeply believed in.
That's a courage I can't say for sure I would have in similar circumstances. Which of us can really say what we would do in a situation without actually being in that situation? I'd like to think that I would have honor and courage at a time that required those things, but it's impossible to know, really, what I would do. So, without in any way denigrating the sacrifice of those who've gone to war, let me really pose the question.
How is it, after millennia of experiencing the horror of war, anyone can still feel it's justified. I feel there is some psychological wisdom we could glean from Norberto Keppe's work that could help us to understand this. In preface, I was catching up on some documentaries this past Sunday. I don't have much time to stay tuned during the week. I was looking to capture the arguments going back and forth about the war and the people's response to it, because I'm always looking for how to correctly frame these issues.
I seek always to do that through the lens of Norberto Keppe's science of psychosociopathology, and many times that requires elements, situations, incidents to analyze. So I dug out a copy I had of Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young's timely documentary from the midterm election year of 2006. CSNY Deja Vu is the name of it, where the aging supergroup took to the road to raise consciousness about the terrible costs of the Iraq War.
That is one great piece of documentary filmmaking, by the way, and a marvelous example of artistic relevance that tapped into a chord of dissent among many of the concert goers that we are seeing just now surfacing through the Occupy movement. The film shows the evolution of the tour, mounted around Young's blistering musical protest and critique of then-President Bush's war policies, Living With War, a 13-song CD of outrage and indignation launched in the early 2000s, maybe around 2005-2006.
At one point, playing in Atlanta, a portion of the audience became apoplectic when Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young launched into the anti-war anthem, Let's Impeach the President. It was an intense moment in the film. Film director Neil Young had asked veteran CNN journalist Mike Seray to embed in the tour, as he had done with the military in both Iraq wars, and Seray was able to capture the disagreeing Atlanta concertgoers as they stormed out in furious protest.
It was a vitriolic display that really sets you back. Here's a band singing to an American audience about the sickness of a war that's killing their own American citizens, and they're incensed. How is that possible? Well, this was a deeply psychological and sociological process I was witnessing, and we can turn to Keppe's psychological vision to garner some understanding. Keppe addresses this condition extremely well in his seminal book on the pathology of power, Liberation of the People.
Here, he states, all of society works for a few hundred people who are in control. And he warns us that if we don't accept full awareness of this, we can quickly find ourselves in an even worse situation than we are in currently. Keppe further states that a small group of pathologically sick individuals, interested in fomenting conflict, can force the people into becoming cannon fodder, as has been done many times in the past, most recently in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan.
When a nation declares war, Keppe states, it is the leaders of that nation who declare it, thereby acting against their own people, because any war, no matter which, is waged for the purpose of protecting the interests of those in power. These are not patriots then, my friends, but they are loyal only to where the money flows. We know that the harm that is occurring to the U.S.
Because of this war is completely avoidable. We also know that the harm and real economic and spiritual damage of this latest war is a result of an inconscientized intention. The results show us the hidden intention. So, we can say, looking at the terrible results, that something very dark is driving the makers of this war. Now, in answer to the perhaps inevitable reply, but they started it, I would just respond that most of the people dying on the other side have nothing whatsoever to do with starting it.
They are hard-working citizens of a sovereign nation, just as we are. There is a strong factor of paranoia at work here, which the really psychologically messed-up leaders manipulate into generating a knee-jerk, emotionally unbalanced response, as can be seen in the dissenting CSNY concert-goers in Atlanta, or in soaring Bush approval ratings after the shock and awe invasion of Baghdad. Paranoia stimulates projection to seeing the enemy only outside.
Any point of view that challenges my dogmatic, the enemy is out there, creed, must be attacked violently so I can hold on to my belief without making the minimum effort to reconsider. This is what happened in Atlanta in the example I've been discussing. Keppe brings this sociopathology inside as well when he reminds us that if we see hunger in the world, abandoned children, war and torture, injustice and aggression, then every one of us is guilty because we have helped to build and preserve a society that is inhuman.
Obviously, we've not been fully conscious of this, but now that Analytical Trilogy is showing this to us, we no longer have any excuse to ignore it. This can help us to check our projection and go inside a little to see the source of our difficulties a little closer to home. And by the way, the more projection we have, the sicker we are, which makes any leader who lobbies for the elimination of the enemy out there as the cause of our problems, whether Jew or jihadist, drug trafficker or Dixie chick, this man or woman is the sickest among us.
And those of us who follow are reacting in sickness as well. We're going to go on to consider all of this in much greater detail and look to it, what the... The courage is that's required today in order to really change the world. And it's going to require something of all of us if we're going to make the change that we so desperately want and have wanted for so many centuries.
We're back in just a moment on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco.
Our program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. We're on Conscious Planet Radio, streaming through iTunes, and, of course, on our website at heatingthroughconsciousness.com. Our program today, Standing Up for the Truth.
And I think nobody represents that in my life as much as our guest today, as always, Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco. And I think that we could really, through her life and the life of Norberto Keppe, understand what it means to stand up for truth and to have a life that has value and has meaning, a very important life that she has. Cláudia, just a few moments ago, I found out, I didn't know, I hadn't read the paper this morning, that they evacuated Occupy Wall Street in New York after similar situations in Oakland and Portland and I think a number of cities, and Vancouver is having some problems too.
And they just went in and helicopters and police and I think how many people do they say they arrested today seven can't be 700 no there are only two to three hundred people in the park and arrested 70 people okay there and uh forcibly removed protesters who had locked arms took away everything that was there. I mean they had a hospital there or a
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: kitchen a library with
Richard: 5,000 books
Cláudia: thrown in the waste.
Richard: Now, this is happening, just so you know, the excuse they're giving. Same thing's happening in Oakland and Portland. Vancouver had some problems, too. I don't know if they've evacuated Vancouver yet or not. There was somebody died of a drug overdose there. So they use these kinds of things to justify shutting it down. What they're saying now is that the movement has been taken over.
The protests in the park have been taken over by homeless people, criminals, drug addicts. What they're saying is that the camps have drawn the homeless, street youths, and a criminal element, some officials are saying. And so this is the excuse.
Cláudia: One of our contacts in this square, Gilbert Gambucci. Yeah. Well, he's
Richard: there participating, yeah.
Cláudia: He said, he told us, these criminals, ex-convicts, they are kind of thrown in the area by the police people.
Richard: After they're released from prison.
Cláudia: Yes, and they are kind of encouraged to go there and to ask for jobs and to ask for food and shelter. So the police groups are themselves doing and promoting this phenomena. So this does not surprise me at all Richard because the importance of those people who are there it's not really what they are doing but what they are representing yeah sure their symbol and they are symbolizing something that millions of people would like to do and they are the voice.
They are articulating, like a spokesperson for a
Richard: feeling that many, many people have, maybe most people have now.
Cláudia: And the majority, they are working, they are taking care of their families. They still don't feel it's their turn to go there and to manifest. Generally, people in the middle classes, the hardworking people, responsible, ethical people, They keep working and sacrificing to the last moment to be a legal citizen, to be a hardworking and responsible person with their kids, their families, paying their bills.
So they are responsible to the last minute of their lives. So this doesn't mean that the majority of the middle class people and the workers are not feeling in their own skin all the problems that those people, those so-called minorities in those squares all over the world, they are manifesting and representing what they are saying and shouting. And so everybody's in tune.
Everybody's in resonance. The difference is that those who are in those areas, they tend to be, as you said, more outspoken. They lost a lot of things, so they don't have that much to lose anymore. But they are in tune. They are representing the majority. They are a small group comparing to the 99%, but they really represent the majority.
Richard: Yeah, and Gilbert has been saying this, Cláudia.
He's been saying that all the people who come to visit, there are people from all over the world who go to visit Occupy Wall Street, and all the people he's talking to there from Japan, from Germany, from Italy, from Canada, they're all saying that they would be there if they could. And they support
Cláudia: what's happening. And also, this doesn't mean that those who are not there suffered less from the actions, the ill actions of the powerful.
Many of those didn't suffer less than the others. But they are kind of waiting to see what is going to happen. And they are afraid to suffer more and more punishments and consequences. And extensively to their families, mostly to their families. They are married, they have children, their children go to school, they have to pay for the bills, they have to feed them, they have to pay for all the expenses of the family.
So they are scared to sacrifice their families more than what would be necessary. So they are kind of waiting behind to see what is going to happen.
Richard: But with strong kind of spiritual support. Absolutely.
Cláudia: Very much in support. And many of them send money, they send food, they send support, they go there, and they speak to others, they share the information. So this thing is really, really serious, Jones.
And I'm afraid things will become darker and more serious.
Richard: Before
Cláudia: they get better. Before they get better. Because unfortunately, unfortunately, this revolt was a kind of pre-planned by the powerful. They were planning to bring the people to such a situation of despair, exasperation,
Richard: that they would
Cláudia: stand up and revolt. And when they would do that, they would have already laws installed, as they did with September 11, three buildings falling down, because we always forget the third building.
And this is something that I would like to come back to talk today, if we have time, because everybody speaks about…
Richard: Building 7 was
Cláudia: the one you're talking about. It just collapsed for no reason. They speak only about the twins, the twins and the twin towers. But what is
Richard: really ugly is what happened to the third one. Okay. Right? Okay,
Cláudia: but going back, we have been reading all this pre-planning going on for a long, long time.
Richard: By pre-planning, you mean setting the stage for a revolt to happen. Yes. And then
Cláudia: having all the things in place to stop the revolt. And to kill people and to start a civil revolution and to have excuses to shut down them, to put them in prison. Well, they are going to kill many if this civil war starts. They're going to kill many people.
And not only this civil war will bring people to prison because they prepared a lot of prison camps all over the
Richard: United States.
Cláudia: What is this for?
Richard: This is the FEMA group, the
Cláudia: Federal Emergency Management Agency. They have been preparing these prison camps. And now, with all this revolt, we can foresee what is going to happen. Because people will not stay quiet.
How come? They have no choice. They have no way out. If they stay quiet, they will be crushed. If they don't, they will continue
Richard: to be crushed.
Cláudia: So there is no way out other than confronting them. And so the hope is that many of the military and the police would start realizing who they are working for and stop doing what they're doing against their own fellow man.
Richard: Yes, I just want to say something about that, Cláudia, because what strikes me every time I see this kind of reaction from the police in a situation like this happened in the 60s, happened in the 50s during the civil rights marches and movements, they always say that they're cleaning out the park in order to protect public safety. This is the idea they create, you know, that public.
Safety is at risk. Actually, what's at risk is the people at the top who are creating
Cláudia: this mess, right? Sure. They are at the risk. And the
Richard: police and the military don't understand this yet. You're totally right about that.
Cláudia: But you know, police have also, they have also their families. They have also their bills to pay. Sure. They are threatened to be dismissed.
Like everybody else. Like everybody else. So they, how come they are going
Richard: to support and feed their children? So they use the same technique with
Cláudia: the police, with the military. So things will have to get to such an extreme point that when they see that everything really is lost and out of control, then they would maybe turn to the side of the people, and this must happen.
Now, you see this, Richard, going on now, not only in the Occupy movements. This discovery that the true evil psychopaths are the bankers. And not all the bankers. The smallest were already shut down by them since a long time. When we went to the United States in the early 80s, people could open their own banks. Still, some people, some groups, some families.
But eventually, only those major big banks who own all the money of the planet, you see the biggest and the largest and the richest bank own 73 or 74 trillion dollars. Ooh. If you see the budget of the United States, it's 26. Yeah. Around 26 trillion. Yeah.
Richard: So just
Cláudia: one bank owns 73
Richard: trillion of dollars. 73 trillion dollars. It's
Cláudia: hard to imagine how much money.
Yeah. Yeah. So this is totally lunatic. This is totally crazy. This went too far. They are totally psychopaths and they are really dangerous because they pay for mercenaries. If you see, if you really see the police who's getting involved, they must have been a kind of pre-prepared, pre-prepared to act in these situations. They even could be special forces inside the police, like mercenaries, because the regular police is more balanced.
They are friendly, but I'm sure they will start using those mercenaries. They
Richard: do that now for these security groups that are contracted out by the United Nations, by the United States to go into these war
Cláudia: zones. They
Richard: have no ethics, no nationalities, no nothing. They just work and kill for money.
Cláudia: So they are psychopaths as the owners of the world are. And I really am not surprised, and I think things will get much worse.
So you that are listening to us, we are not kidding. People are not kidding. Nobody is kidding. This is not a movie this is not a hollywood movie this is reality and this is this stinks because we are under the power of real demonic beings in terms of their own evil actions. Cláudia
Richard: told me about this I wasn't aware of it but a research has been done at a swiss swiss research university measured the readiness to cooperate and the egotism of 28 professional traders on the stock market who took part in computer simulations and intelligence tests.
This is reported by Der Spiegel out of Germany. The results of the brokers compared with the behavior of psychopaths surprised the study's co-authors, forensic expert and a lead administrator of a prison north of Zurich. And the studies show that stockbrokers behaved more egotistically and were more willing to take risks than psychopaths, but not the good kind of risks. Those risks calculated to ensure the loss of their competition rather than secure their own personal gain.
They were more
Cláudia: interested in defeating the other person. And this work, this research has been done in many countries already, more than one, and I'm very happy because when Dr. Keppe wrote on the cover of his book, psychotics who are who if they're not stopped they will destroy civilization I found oh what a what a something that nobody has ever spoken about you know don't call
Richard: it that this Cláudia is talking
Cláudia: about the front cover of Liberation of the People Keppe's phenomenal book on the psychology.
So now we see people starting to get aware of this and they question is that what is what is happening. The situation that these people are involved in, like banking system, speculation, Wall Street, stock market, does this create psychopaths or the psychopaths choose to go there? I would say both. I would say both. Because just a person who has tendencies to be a psychopath and competitive and aggressive, choose a kind of profession like this.
But as soon as they are entering the system, they have all the protection of laws and they have the power, the power structure, social prestige, all these laws that are protecting them so they can behave like psychopaths with no restraint. If you, if you are a psychopath and you, if you kill people like in a everyday life, you go to prison. So you will be a little shyer, more timid than acting in Wall Street for instance.
Richard: Yeah, exactly this. In fact, Obama said recently, he needs to take a quick break, but Obama said recently that the problem with the situation on Wall Street is that they did nothing illegal. He said it may have been immoral, it may have been greedy, but
Cláudia: it was not illegal. So you're right. Why they did not do something illegal? Because the laws are illegal.
The laws they created are totally illegal. And people don't understand this, that the laws were put in place. They are all illegal because legalidade.
Richard: Legality.
Cláudia: Legality is synonymous ethics. When this started to be legal or illegal, when people started to create laws totally outside
Richard: the ethical world. That deviated from ethics.
Cláudia: Deviated. So this practicity or what is used,
Richard: what is good to be used for people is legal.
This is totally wrong. So we have absolutes. We are not relative. Yeah, exactly. How can something be legal and immoral? I mean, this is obviously a crazy thing.
Cláudia: And this is what is happening
Richard: in the present world.
Cláudia: People that are following laws are the most illegal ones.
Richard: What a situation.
You don't want to go far away this time. Back in a moment. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco. I just want to continue this hot and very, very, very important discussion. And Cláudia, I feel a certain fire in your conversation today, which I think is very much needed. It's very important to bring this absoluteness to this situation we're talking about.
I was watching a documentary on the weekend about Henry Kissinger. It's called The Trial of Henry Kissinger. It's based on a book that's been written by a British journalist named Christopher Hitchens. Um, sort of an explosive book looking at, at Kissinger's war crimes over history. In this documentary, BBC documentary, phenomenally well done, showing that there were peace talks for the Vietnam War going on in 1968 in Paris secretly.
The, uh, Johnson administration at the time was having peace talks with northern, North Vietnam in 1968. Henry Kissinger was part of that team. He reported back to Richard Nixon, who was the Republican candidate in the election of 1968, that they were very close to a deal. Nixon called the South Vietnamese president and said, don't sign this agreement because we're going to win the election.
You don't want to sign an agreement with guys that aren't going to win the election. They didn't sign, and the Vietnam War went on for four more years. And in that four-year period, 50% of the Americans who were killed were killed during that four-year period when the war was extended by these psychopaths who were creating this situation to get power, to become, not thinking about the people, not thinking in any way about the situation in their country.
This is a scandal in the world, isn't it? So sick.
Cláudia: Richard, people don't understand that these people, some of them, even participate in a kind of a sect. And they have their spiritual beliefs. And according to their spiritual beliefs, they were chosen by some extra power. Of course, this... God or their God is not our God. No. It's not. We don't recognize the same God as they do.
Some spiritual entity, very powerful but not our God, rules or tells them what to do. And their understanding about humanity and the planet is the opposite of our understanding. When I mean our understanding, when I say this, I mean the understanding of the people, the understanding of Christians, of Islamic, of Buddhists, of Confucianists, of Jews, the old Jews, you understand, the traditional Jews.
Uh, so our understanding of humanity is a place where you should love your fellow man and be fair and do for the other one what you would like to be done for yourself. And we are all equal no matter what, what religion, what color of skin, what race, what profession, what age, what sex. We should be equal. And we can say that Christianity is the, the maximum of this understanding because the maximum of Christ, Jesus Christ, is this one.
You can say that Christians are not always behaving according to Jesus laws because Jesus said to kill is a crime. And if you don't do to your fellow man what you would like to be done to yourself, you're not being a Christian. So the maximum of this understanding of the law of love and, and goodwill and good deeds and pure action is Jesus Christ.
For this is absolutely so. Their law is the opposite because they think the planet belongs to a small group of chosen ones who are more capable, who are more intelligent as
Richard: they
Cláudia: think, as they think, and they deserve the planet. And everybody who does not belong to their own group of chosen ones should behave like their servants, should serve them in any ways, in any means, under any circumstances, and if they start to bother, they just kill them as animals.
So other peoples and other races are here to serve them as slaves, as food sometimes, even food sometimes, providing them blood or elements for their own health, organs, organs, children that are sacrificed to serve them in this way. So we see barbarities. We don't see it on, in the open or in the regular medias because this is so hidden. This is known but this is so hidden that if you touch the subjects, the end of your life will be like
Richard: soon and expected.
So many people know this, many people
Cláudia: died denouncing these things, but one must know what is going on in the planet. And they let you go to some extent, like they let you go to a limit where they understand it's, you are not bothering them so much. But if you start to bother them, you feel their strength, you will feel their power, you will feel the consequences, and they will let you know harshly, this
Richard: is not good, be, don't go
Cláudia: here.
Yeah, but now what is important, it's to really understand that we are the 99. And it seems that we still did not get it. Because if we stand up for our rights, they can kill millions, and they will, and they will, and they will anyhow. Because they find that the planet's too populated, too much population, so they're going to kill anyhow. They are planning already many, many means to extinguish a large part of humanity.
And some of them use those apocalyptic ideas that God is punishing the planet. So this is not absolutely God's plan to kill his children. This is absolutely crazy. But it's their God's plan to kill humanity and their plan to kill humanity. So if we do not stand up, and if we do not confront even death as a possibility, but dying for something better and something ethical and something worthy, then dying just out of our cowardness.
Richard: Now, as you're speaking, you're speaking about something that requires a knowledge of this spiritual battle that's been going on for... And, Richard, I think we
Cláudia: are getting to a point now that either we do something or we will see the victory of this group. And those who stay will stay under these circumstances.
Richard: They're totally slaves. This will be ugly.
Cláudia: This will be ugly.
It's ugly now, but this will be really ugly. We can
Richard: say goodbye, farewell, for all, for
Cláudia: all, for always, for forever. Any idea of freedom in this planet?
Richard: These sects you're talking about, I'm assuming, are Lucifer-worshipping sects or some kinds of secret societies that give value to what they call the Prince of Darkness, I guess, which would be the ugliest, corrupted entity that could exist in the universe, would be him.
They're following that, putting him as the god. Is this what you're talking
Cláudia: about? Yeah, I mean that. And people who hear me, they understand. Those who understand what I say, they will understand. Because this is something that all religions know. All religions know. Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists. Jews. Jews. Islamic, they know what I'm speaking about. So we should get together now. We should get together now because even as a religious group, we are the majority because we are at the side of the righteous God.
We that are Muslim, Christians, Jews, true Jews, and we that are Buddhists, Confucianists, we have the same God. So we should stick together and be at the sign and stand up at the sign of the right God, the true one and only God, who is the God of goodness, beauty and truth and freedom.
Richard: And to do that, we need to really understand that there is this other force.
Cláudia: There is. There is. This is
Richard: not well known, Cláudia, I think, by the sort of the
Cláudia: main people. They control the media, the smallest group or the sect control the media, they control the academics, they control the printing houses, they control the artists, they control everything, the communication systems, they control everything. So as soon as you start seeing something that makes sense and it's going against them, they stop you, as they did with us many times.
They tried to kill us more than one time. God gave us a special protection. I don't know up to when we're going to have the special protection that God gave to us. I've met people that are extremely, extremely valuable people, ethical people, heroes, and they died. And I've seen them dying because they were fighting for the same purpose. But we are going to die, all of us, anyhow.
So I want to tell you, it's much better to die for a cause which will be valuable than to die as a coward or as an unethical person. I
Richard: appreciate very much that you're talking about the they in a more specific term now, Cláudia, because this was one of the questions that came up in our teleseminar that we did after you left.
Alan, our host, was asking about the they. Who's the they? People don't know who the they is.
Cláudia: They know. They are afraid to recognize. They know who are the richest. And the richest are the most powerful. And the most powerful are in pact with several elements of the politic area and the noble area. The
Richard: secret societies. The blue bloods. And they know.
They know. They
Cláudia: are afraid to confront the truth. Because now is, is the time has come where you will have to admit who is who. I don't say that all of those who are born inside this sect are the evil ones or they are necessarily evil, but they must now do their own choices as
Richard: well. Malachi Martin, the great exorcist that you talk about a lot, who came to visit you and Dr Keppe in New York when you were there.
Thank you. He's dead now. He was a great... He was killed. He was killed. He was killed. Yeah. He used to speak about the fact that there were families in the United States that had made pacts with these dark forces consciously. Yeah. And that this had been passed from generation to generation for a long, long time. And he said he knew who these families were, but of course he couldn't mention them for fear of his life.
But that this is something that really tangibly exists. He was very clear about that. And
Cláudia: if you see the owners of the money, now they are like sharing in the Internet some information about the true powerful people and true powerful groups. Who really has the money. Who really has. Those who have the money, those are in power. And those who are in power, those belong to the sect.
It's a very dangerous sect. And when they are after those ridiculous Christian sects or Muslim sects or whatever, this is ridiculous in front of the true, real, dangerous sect that they belong to. And I know, I know, this is really dangerous to speak about.
Richard: Let's speak about it. But,
Cláudia: well, as some people in European Parliament, some representatives, some politicians that I have spoken to when I was there, and even some people on the top of the government in the United States government, when they spoke to me, they were like in a sort of threat saying, why do you do this, why do you bother, why do you bother about other people, why do you care.
So why don't you just take care of your own life, live and let live. Because if you continue doing this you will feel the even harsher consequences, you will
Richard: feel the wrath of this power.
Yeah,
Cláudia: and I've, I've felt this for a long time, I felt this for a long time, but you know there is something that is more powerful, Richard, when you really, um, understand who is in charge. And I don't want to be against who is in real charge, which is God. And his son, I don't want to be like to be a traitor.
I don't want to be unloyal because I follow this law, the law of love, the law of liberty, the law of civil rights, the law of equality, of charity. So loving your neighbor as you love yourself. This is my law. This is the law I've chosen. And I hope more people will choose this law because this planet belongs to this kingdom, the kingdom of love, the kingdom of freedom, the kingdom of God, the kingdom of Jesus Christ, the kingdom of Islamic and Jews and Buddhists.
There are four, love, truth and beauty, the
Richard: real power,
Cláudia: the real power.
We
Richard: didn't talk about building seven, can we do that next time, building seven of World Trade Center? I
Cláudia: don't want to interrupt your beautiful, well, we can go back to that because what
Richard: you're talking about is so fantastic and I, I feel as you're speaking, Cláudia, a real need for us to, um, to sort of make this commitment, stop pacting in conscious or unconscious ways with this system that we have in place, but start making a, a commitment to live a life more lined with these true Christian, Buddhist, Islamic, Jewish values.
You know, I think this is very beautiful, but you did mention at the beginning about building seven of the World Trade Centers
Cláudia: when the world, the two twin towers, yeah, were bring down, were brought down, yeah, were brought down,
Richard: not, uh, collapsed, no, no,
Cláudia: we're brought down. I was watching TV, yeah, and I've, I've watched also the building seven which seemed to collapse
Richard: out of nowhere, yeah, because it seemed to, you know, so
Cláudia: kind of, uh, at this moment I, I was thinking how come they have all the cameras ready to show all over, all the world, all TVs are showing what is happening.
So if it would be a terrorist attack or an accident, in order to have someone going there and having all these cameras put already in position to take all those, those pictures. But this building seven made me become afraid because I have friends in New York City, so I had friends living around that area, sure, so it was calling them and it's and saying my God, what is happening, other buildings are falling apart, what is, where are you, how are you.
And they were a kind of hearing the noises and, and all disoriented and all this dirty dust coming in. So what, when I asked them what is, what, what is this building seven, and they said these are the FBI and the CIA archives. So they had documents of the CIA and FBI in this building and this seems
Richard: secret. So
Cláudia: it's so obvious, it's so obvious, my God, burning archives, this is not
Richard: even a subtle thing,
Cláudia: not even a subtle, and they don't speak about the seventh building,
Richard: they don't even mention this, they're so blazing.
Now Cláudia, they feel they can do anything they want in public and nobody. They don't say anything about it. Yeah, because
Cláudia: everything, as I told you, all medias, all major medias, and they own the reporters and the journalists paying for their salaries. They pay them well. And even if they do not pay them that well, they know they will not have any other place to live because if they open their own medias, they will be shut down in less than a month because the economic conditions would not allow them to do that.
So you see they're dominating. I can tell you something. When Jesus said, the children of the evil one are more smart, are smarter than the children of my father. So the good ones are not that smart, are not that malicious. We don't spend the time planning and articulating how to dominate other people and take advantage from them. We spend our lives working to make people happy and healthier and grow nature in, in a healthier way and be fair and be happy and live our lives in freedom and happiness and be healthy and wanting to have other people happier too.
So we spend our lives like this, appreciating, adoring beauty and goodness and God and cosmic perfection. And while we are astonished by the wonders of creation, they are planning to, to own all of this and to destroy, not only to own and to have power over, over the, the cosmic laws and, and in the universe, not only this, but also having a power to destroy it and having power over life.
So we are totally different, we're totally different. So they understand things, criminal things that we don't, so they know how to plan a society which is evil and we don't. So while we are taking care of doing good things, they are planning and planning and, and taking care of
Richard: doing evil things. Yeah,
Cláudia: no, that's right, that's it, thank you. So we don't.
We don't understand, and we are far, far behind them when we speak about illegality and criminality.
Richard: That'll make you think, won't it? If you want to think a little bit more, that's wonderful. If you want to get involved, even better. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is our program.
That's the book that should be spread throughout all of the Occupy movement around the world. As well, you can download the PDF of Call to Action. Spread that out in your social network. Do that. Join us in this great campaign to make a just, equal society for the first time in our history. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head returns next week.
