Richard Lloyd Jones with you once again on the Positive World Radio Network, and as always in iTunes as well.
Martin Luther King spoke eloquently about the link between the civil rights movement and speaking out against the injustice of the Vietnam War.
Some didn't like that. The powerful, obviously, but even people who supported him. Peace and civil rights don't mix, they admonished, and his response was swift and wise. His calling, he said, was to be in obedience to the brotherhood of man, counseled by Jesus. He needed to speak out. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, Reverend King preached, and I think of how few of us stand for anything so great in our lives.
And yet to live a life of meaning, we must think of these things. Romance, ideals, and transcendence. Living a meaningful life today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. You know, when you think of Martin Luther King's commitment to truth and justice, it becomes a powerful example of moral courage, doesn't it? And what has happened to our courage? I mean, back in Dr.
King's time there were many who faced the dogs and billy clubs non-violently. Extraordinary images of guts and true religiosity even today. But it's not so common today, though of course not completely unknown in recent memory. Perhaps it's safe to say we are not so linked to social justice in our everyday lives today. If we stop to think of it, it's mostly at Christmas time, maybe, hearts a little more open then.
We have become inured to the huge levels of injustice and malfeasance perpetrated by our economic and political system these days, and that needs to change. A mass apathy seems to grip our modern world, hanging heavy over us like the insufferable gloom that Edgar Allan Poe described so poetically in The Fall of the House of Usher. Perhaps it was this that French war hero and resistance fighter Stéphane Hessel, now 93, was addressing in his immensely popular pamphlet, Indignez-vous, or Cry Out, that has taken the youth of France by storm.
This stripping away of social services, the accumulation of media power in the hands of a few, this world where special interests triumph over the general interest. These are the things we would refuse to give into if we had been the true heirs of all our forebears fought for in our Western world. And this, Stefan Hessel is addressing in his wonderful little book.
This is a rather serious concern, but where do we go to find leaders? You know, it seems most have been sucked up into the system, which puts our health in the hands of pharma companies, whose only motivation is to gain profits. Where material pursuit has replaced spiritual fulfillment. Where GMOs and terminator seeds, combined with the explosion in the use of pesticides, is destroying our capacity to grow and consume healthy food. Where the banking system makes profit on war and drugs.
Well, you know the picture. We're totally lost in this, and this is where our work in this radio program, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, comes in. Dr. Norberto Keppe wrote a book in 1980 that is very timely, a very powerful story of the situation, how we got here and what to do about it. A deep calling in this book called Liberation of the People, the Pathology of Power.
I highly recommend you check that book out.
About that, you could check out and you'll find more information about the pathology of power on that website. Dr. Keppe and Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco are leaders who call forth a new response from us in these times of need. Deeply powerful, you know, and with many answers for how we got into this boat that most high-profile activists don't know anything about, and they need to know.
So do direct anybody you know who's an activist, who's interested in what's going on in the world and changing what's going on in the world.
Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt-Brasheka will share something very intimate in our program today about her work with Dr. Norberto Keppe for over 20 years, how it came to be, and why it's so important.
But first, I want to have a look at one of the reasons that we're so out of it. That's a very colloquial way to say it. But Sherston Arvidsson is a psychiatric nurse and psychoanalyst at Norberto Keppe's Institute of Analytical Trilogy. And how to see the modern human being is what she'll talk about. Kerstin, how do you see that? How can we begin to even think about this here at the beginning?
I see it like this, that in our essence, we have, in our inner self, we have everything that we need to feel good, to be enthusiastic, to have motivation, and to feel happy, in fact. But what happens, this is what we have to see, and what I also deal with in therapy with clients, that we block this contact with our inner essence, with our qualities.
And we do this through our pathology, that we don't see. When we don't see it, when we don't have consciousness about it, And this pathology, our difficulties, our problems, our envy, our theomania, and inversion, projection, etc., they will control our life.
Richard: Dr. Cláudia Pacheco said that our vital field, our force field of energy inside, only goes to where our interests lie. So if we're linked only to this material aspect, then our vital field is not functioning as it should.
This must be a big contributor to depression, lack of motivation.
Yes, because narcissism, in practice, I have seen this working so well in the therapy with clients. It's like a key that opens up the understanding. So narcissism is very much linked to this insatisfaction that people who are depressed, who doesn't have any motivation, feel an insatisfaction with life. And as we know from earlier podcasts that you have spoken about, envy is very much the core of this insatisfaction.
And why? Because if I am very narcissistic, just concentrated on myself, me and myself, so what do I do with what I have around me? Other people, the surrounding, friends, contact, work, everything, all the good that I have around it. I like, I sort of like step on it. I don't give value to it because I see only myself. I'm only concentrated on myself, so I don't give value to what I have around me, which is of enormous value, life itself, and this can only lead to insatisfaction.
But when the person conscientizes this attitude of stepping on like like an elephant in a glass shop, you know, smashing, smashing. We can destroy a relationship in one second, a relationship that we had in 10 years. So we can see that this causes great insatisfaction.
Richard: If we're only interested in ourselves then, Sherston, we're not taking advantage of all of these other resources that we have inside and also outside, from other people, from art and culture, from dedication to something, all of these developments that are possible. We just cut that out completely if we're thinking only about ourselves.
Is this a way of saying it?
Yes, and I have one example, and I think it's very common in my country, in Sweden, for example, that people isolate themselves very much. They stay at home, they cut the contact with friends, and isolation is a big problem. And one person brought up this situation. She has an apartment and she has a possibility to invite friends and and family member, her family also, but she doesn't do it.
Why? Because she just thinks about oh my flat is not good enough, it's not so beautiful, it's a little bit messy here and there, and if I do food maybe I don't do it in the right way, maybe they wouldn't like it. And she has a lot of questions and even deliriums about what is going to happen when or if she invites people to her flat, so she doesn't do it.
But when she in analysis aware of this concentration only in herself, in her flat, just thinking what will happen with her if she invites someone. She conscientized and what happened? She was able to start to invite friends, to make a good, beautiful dinner for them. And they got very happy and she got very happy. This is a very simple example, but this is the way it works.
You
Richard: said in your notes to me about this program that doing analysis the person enters into contact with this eternal part inside themselves that has this link with the eternity with the creator outside. And even if the person is an atheist what they're touching is this part of themselves. And this must be what's happening in this case you explained, where the woman suddenly she comes out of herself enough to see the reality of the...
You know, one client said like this when she had been understanding, started to understand this question of her narcissism, of her concentrating on herself. She said, you know, I'm so absolutely totally fed up of seeing my problems and myself as the center of the world. And I think this is exactly a consequence. So when we start to see this concentration, self-centeredness, we start to have a link with reality and with the Creator because we don't any longer compete with him.
Richard: This is very different from what our society tries to teach us, right? I don't know so much about the Swedish society, but I certainly know in North America that the whole emphasis is look out for number one. You've got to look out for yourself. You've got to get love for yourself first. You've got to make sure you're looked after and at the minimum your family is looked after.
Forget everybody else because it's a jungle out there and you got to swim with the sharks and you know and so the society does not help us in this internal process that you're talking about now, does
it? Exactly. And I have one example also from another client which can illustrate this a bit, because in Sweden many people have difficulty with work working, we have a large percentage of people that are being supported by the
Richard: society, a lot of
social assistance.
Yes, in Canada we're starting to cut away that, but we have a similar attitude there. This is a difficulty for the society and for the whole country. And one client brought up brought this question up and she said like this, you know, I'm irritated, I wake up with irritation, I and this for for her was a big revelation because she she has she hadn't even noticed it before.
And then I asked her to to tell well what is happening, why are you irritated? You know, I think I always have been like this, I wake up with an irritation, I don't want to wake up, I don't want to get up, so I have a resistance to get up. But what do you associate the day with, waking up to the day, a new day?
And then she said work. And so what do you associate work with? You know, she said it's something that takes me out from the the time that I want to have for myself. It's only a lot of must must, I have to do this and that and that and I cannot like spend the time on myself, so the work takes time from me.
What can we deduce from this? That she is irritated to be dragged out from her self-centeredness. So we can see that this has also to do with narcissism, and it's totally the opposite, because work is something that gives you health, good action, work is furnishing health for you and equilibrium him. The
Richard: program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We're on the Positive World Radio Network.
A very intimate and personal conversation with Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco about her work with Norberto Keppe is coming up. Don't go away. The program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We're on the Positive World Radio Network. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. We are looking at many factors today of ethics and romance and ideals and even transcendence. But it was a very interesting experience when I sat down with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco this week to do the interview.
Because she just started talking. Normally what I do is I set the machine into record and then go and join her in the other room to do the interview. But this time she just started talking. And at one point she said, do you think we should start the radio program? And I said, no, why don't you just keep talking? And so we have a very intimate conversation with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco today.
I hope you enjoy it.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: I was watching, you know something? I was watching Jesus' picture that I have in my table. And for the first time, I was watching to that picture as a picture of a man. And they adapted from the Santo Sudário.
Richard: Yeah, that's the Shroud of Turin, Cláudia. They adapted in
Cláudia: print with the use of computers and arts. And they did the best, the most.
Richard: A recreation. A recreation. From the blankets where he was...
Cláudia: Where there is this face.
Richard: Yeah, this
Cláudia: image, yes. And I was watching, and for the first time I thought, my God, what a man, what a beautiful man. A man. As a man. How beautiful. Because normally people speak about the Virgin's Mary Beauty. And she's so beautiful. Astonishing beautiful. And I've read once or twice about the beauty of Christ, that he was really impacting with his
Richard: physical beauty.
Physical presence, yeah. This must be true. You're standing on top of a mountain, speaking in front of thousands of people. How do you captivate an audience with no PowerPoint, no microphone? It's all charisma that does that. It's a total charismatic power. There's no other way to do that.
Cláudia: Charismatic? And physical beauty, for the first time I realized how Jesus Christ was a really beautiful man.
Yeah, so amazing, because he was a man too. Yeah yeah perfect yeah. He must have had the perfect forms in his face right, was really proportional, harmonious, beautiful. And it is so, we normally look at him as God and only God, but not as a man, and he was a man and he was really something, he is beautiful. When I
Richard: look at old pictures of Dr.
Keppe when he was younger too, I see charisma, charm. Yeah well there was a video that Gilbert put together of him speaking in New York 84 maybe maybe, and it was wonderful. It's wonderful to watch him, my gosh he's he's funny, very human and um tolerant and powerful, but not powerful in a sort of like an egotistic way at all, humble, is a mixture of all of those components.
I don't know how you can have all those components and have authority. We think of authority as being like um this is the way it is, not he's not like that at all, but tremendous, it's
Cláudia: incredible. Our concept of authority, authority is arrogance, isn't it? Is, Cláudia. I spoke to a man one day that I don't know who he was, really, because he has hidden his name.
But he was a real powerful that visited us in our office and wanted to talk to me. Where? In what city? New York City. New York. And in the early times, when we were starting with our TV program, the guy went there so well-dressed. What a suit, what shoes, and how elegant and and he claimed he was a Polish a Polish person, royalty maybe, hey or
Richard: from the royal family maybe, I
Cláudia: don't know, he must belong to the secret societies, and he claimed he was the vice president of American Express.
So I I didn't believe in him in the beginning, but he left with me a card, a personal card, and when I tried to call him back in Miami where he was supposed to be, people said we don't know this guy. But he was really, we know when a person is powerful, we know when a person has this like being really, it's an.
Yeah, and
Richard: he was very charismatic also, and very charming too. So he
Cláudia: went to visit me and he said, I want to know, what are you doing here? Who you are? And who is behind you? Because it's not common. I've never seen a person, a woman with your beauty, and speaking the things that you were speaking on TV. And so young. So who is behind you?
Because you look very intelligent and what you say is also important information. So who is behind you? Who is paying for your work? I said, nobody. This
Richard: is our work. This is me and Dr. Cap, you're working. And he said, no, come on. And he said, don't tell me. You can tell me.
Cláudia: Don't have to tell anybody else. Tell these things that you know.
And I said, well, we have a research and maybe the Holy Spirit. I told him. And then he said, but you know, what you say on TV, it is something very dangerous. I said, well, I understand this, but we are very ethical. We want to help the people. We want to help the world to improve. We have this commitment with our faith, which is like universal.
We don't belong to any church, but we have this faith towards God. And we want to fulfill our mission in the planet to do something important for the people, for humanity. So he said, but you know, some people tried this before and they did not succeed because there is a real thick wall. And this thick wall nobody was able to destroy or to break
Richard: down,
Cláudia: penetrate even penetrate.
And and how come, who, you do you have any economic support for for any and from anyone? I said no, we we work and we pay from our private clinic to all everything that we do. And he said
Richard: still happens here,
Cláudia: which which still happens. And and then he said okay, so but I I tell you you will find really a thick wall, it'll
Richard: be
Cláudia: very hard to break down these walls.
So I as if he was saying forget about forget about it and give up,
Richard: yeah. And you seem like
Cláudia: a nice woman but you know well-meaning but congratulations but
Richard: it's time to go home, yeah, time
Cláudia: to go home and give up because this is dangerous. So watch yourselves because something very evil can happen to you. So I told him, well, we are not afraid and we have a saying in my country.
And I'll repeat to you because I've said this to you before. Água mole em pedra dura, tanto bate até que fura. So
Richard: this is... Soft water with a hard rock. The more it hits, the more it breaks down the rock. As
Cláudia: if this is so patiently, slowly
Richard: and
Cláudia: constantly, persevering, persevering, that drop of water. The rock can
Richard: never withstand you.
Cláudia: And then the rock can.
Richard: The rock disappears over time. Yeah. And it's
Cláudia: a very gentle process. Yes. Yes, it is. And drop by drop. And now I remember the symbol you chose for our radio program, which
Richard: is a
Cláudia: drop of water, pouring one by one, one by one, and causing this resonating effect, which is absolutely true. This magnetism is beyond time and space, and it reaches situations beyond time and space.
So the influence of the truth, Richard, is much more powerful than any other powerful lie that is maintained by media, by supporting by powerful institutions. But the truth, it is beyond time and space.
Richard: You've talked about this on the program before, this pseudo power, not being really powerful. But what impresses me, I think, whenever I hear stories like this from you or I watch other people, great people in history who have fought for something real, is the incredible level of faith that there is in goodness, that this is what really has power.
Because there's one thing to say that it's another thing to live your life on that foundation, that goodness has value. How can you defeat goodness uh over time? Like the water it will wear down the the evil if you want to call it that, the evil rock or whatever you want to say. So this is the thing, I think there's tremendous amount of faith belief uh in in goodness underneath what you say.
And this brings a
Cláudia: lot of power for the human being. Yeah.
Richard: Real power.
Cláudia: Yeah, because everything is like sustained, maintained, nourished, renewed by God's energy. And what I find so beautiful is that Dr. Keppe's invention of this Keppe Motors is like a tangible, material experiment.
Richard: It's like
Cláudia: a proof in a way, isn't it? It's a kind of proof, Richard. That there is an organic kind of energy, organic in terms of being organized, harmonious, sustaining the universe.
Everything tends to order, to reorganize itself. It's not chaotic, so order doesn't come from chaos. But the other way around, when we interfere in this harmony, We can create chaos if we interfere in this organic plan for the universe, which is all following the laws of beauty and harmony and this golden numbers and music. So you can even listen to
Richard: universe's music.
Everything is musical, too. One day we
Cláudia: will have means to understand and to hear the music of the wind, the music of all the activities have a music inserted in it. Like many artists know this and some scientists are studying this already. And I have a friend, he's an engineer, very well placed, capable engineer in Sweden. His name is Lars, and he's working for one of the very big companies in Sweden, a multinational, but he is very open, and he's very spiritual, and he studies sound, the energy of sound, and he is seeing through the capimotor a possibility of study further sound, the energy of sound.
Imagine how beautiful the songs that our ears are unable to hear when they are translated by Capimotor and the applications of Capimotor. So if this guy continues his research, he can find really beautiful things, beautiful harmonies in the universe.
Richard: Yeah, because some of the greatest composers were able to do that, weren't they? Yeah, my intuition
Cláudia: is right. To some degree, they could feel or hear the...
The music of angels. Yeah,
Richard: in their head. Yeah, right. Beethoven used to say, God
Cláudia: is shouting in my head, and the only relief I have is to write it down. My God. What
Richard: happened? What envious
Cláudia: people are those who deny all this, isn't it? What a big envy, envy of God, envy of those who are more capable and more charming and more magnetic than those envious, arrogant people.
Richard: Saying that we're just evolving step by step over billions of years and the only reason we create music is because it helps us survive. You enter that world, Cláudia, and you just feel depressed. So the world you're talking about is much more beautiful.
Cláudia: It's romantic. And one of the beautiful things I learned from Dr. Keppe was the romanticism of God and the creation.
When he wrote the book Glorification, I was able to witness his emotional involvement while he was writing the book. And he brought chapter by chapter to be typed. At the time, secretaries used to type for him. And he wrote all the books up to now. By hand. He writes by hand. On a piece of paper. Everything by hand. And he almost does not correct what he writes.
He can, of course, correct subjects,
Richard: contents, which
Cláudia: is like one mistake here that he did or in another place some inversion that he realizes he did. So he can correct. But, I mean, the way he writes and the language and... And so this is fluent. This is fluent. You very seldom have to correct something.
Richard: Let's take a break now.
Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, a rather personal program today and beautiful. We are back in just a moment on the Positive World Radio Network. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is the program with Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco. We're sharing some beautiful moments talking about, really about her and Dr. Keppe's story. And I think people who are listening, maybe they listen to the program and they hear this wisdom that comes from you every week and others who participate in our program, and they maybe think, well, those are nice theories, those are nice thoughts, without realizing all that's gone into creating this science.
So when this man came to you in New York and said, what's behind you guys, he perceived that this is not just two people sitting and sharing their thoughts about opinions about the world. This is something that's based on something more real, more tangible, more formidable. You alluded to it when you're talking about the Keppe motor and the the sort of evidence of this universe of organization of beauty that already exists and the Keppe motor manages to capture that, what if we could capture that.
So this science that you you talk about so eloquently on our program every week is something that's not just taken out of somebody's head, right, this is something that's really studied, understood and it has power because it's based on real principles. This is something that I think people maybe need to know more about. So I appreciate you
Cláudia: talking, I was talking
Richard: about being romantic, right, yes, and
Cláudia: you spoke about the magnetism of dr Keppe, yeah.
And so I can tell you Richard and this I wrote in my book women on the
Richard: couch that must read by the way for any human being on
Cláudia: the planet, we have been always romantic, dr Keppe myself very romantic people, not in terms of being in love with a with another human being and passing the life through
Richard: and candlelight dinners and
Cláudia: no, but really really being romantic, truly romantic.
Well if we can if you tell this I appreciate if you consider
Richard: our lives as true truly romantic because this is romance. We don't understand romance very well. We think of it like, you know, buying chocolates or jewelry and having a candlelit dinner. But you're talking about romance in a transcendental way, which is much bigger.
Cláudia: Yeah, because transcendental romance is something that encompasses a real intimate, beautiful, incredibly beautiful, strong, passionate.
If we can, I don't know how to say this. Passionate. Passionate relationship with God first. Because God, he is a true lover. And when we want to see God as a dry intellectual academic figure, or a father that is ready to punish us, that is always asking for things for his glory, like a human format of God, like sober, arrogant, wanting everybody to worship him and to obey him, being his slaves.
This is a concept that is misunderstood about God. God has all the power possible. Of course, he's all-powerful. But on the other hand, he's also the creator of the most or the smallest in our terms, more delicate, more subtle kind of things that exist. Even feelings and the true friendship, what is a true real loyal friend, this is something divine. What is a true real uh beautiful relationship between uh man and woman, it's beautiful, it's divine.
What is uh a sunset or a an insect which is so delicate and sometimes so colorful as we have here in brazil for instance, it's very divine, it's it's like an image of god, it's a part of god. So if we appreciate so much to have a word of a friend when you are needy or an intimate, this intimacy with God is something that is very much and and
Richard: I think this beautiful quality.
Because you know I was thinking if you know when you listen to a piece of music that you really like, for example, music is where this happens a lot for me, and I'm thinking of it in a different way now that you've spoken.
When we hear those pieces of music that we really love, you know, there's something in the melody or there's some phrase or some harmony that the musicians put together that so touches you so deeply. I feel this with a number of songs from my youth when I was growing up, because I didn't have any way to really celebrate this, because I don't come from a particularly religious family.
So I didn't have that experience in a direct way with the church or these moments with God directly through the Bible or anything. But I do remember it through listening to pieces of music or great pieces of poetry. I love Shakespeare. And, you know, when these moments where you can feel something so incredibly beautiful is not just a human feeling then, you're saying.
This is something linked.
Cláudia: Transcendent, outside time and space. These feelings are eternal, Richard. They are even printed in this magnetic aura of our planet. All the deeds that we performed here are imprinted, mostly the good deeds. And artists, when they are true artists, they are like a link, an important link. We could not survive without arts in the planet. It would be impossible because arts, it's the manifestation of the beauty of God and the feeling, and it's also action, it's accomplishment.
So it's really something that we are missing here, Richard. We are missing a big deal, we could have a much more beautiful, the quality of life would increase like infinitely infinitely
Richard: fold, infinite fold if you could imagine. Then Cláudia if we could imagine just for a second, I'll speak on behalf of the listeners who are listening to you, if we could imagine a society where this experience that you're talking about with the most delicate flower or the smile of a child or any of these beautiful things we see, if we could have this experience in every area of our life more, think of how rich our world would be.
And then I think, so this is what is meant by true romance. This is romantic. Is this what you
Cláudia: mean? I could say to you, Richard, that the history of trilogy is a case or a history of, it's like a love story. It's a love story between two people and God. I could say that the trilogy, Analytical Trilogy, is like a love story of two people that loved God differently from the average or differently.
I mean, without so many preconceptions or misconceptions, and we were able to go beyond or to transcend some rules that were put here by man, not by God, but by man, so-called religious people. So there are many things that we learned from religion, of course. We got a lot of good things from religion, a lot of knowledge that we took from religion, too.
But there is something beyond that, which is the spirit. And the spirit you can't learn from any book.
Richard: Good. Now, you may need to talk a little bit more about this, Cláudia, because it's one of those sort of difficult ideas for us to get a handle on. We don't think of a couple having a relationship with God in the way that you're talking, that's for sure.
Well, this is very practical. Yeah. Can I say it? Yeah, sure.
Cláudia: Okay, this is very practical. Beyond or besides having these feelings, good feelings towards Dr. Keppe and Dr. Keppe towards me, we have been always good friends and admiring each other in many senses. As you said, he's very charismatic, very beautiful man, very handsome. I could say that when I was younger...
I was, I had, well, many fans, myself too, but at some point of our lives, we decided to establish a kind of pact. In a good sense of
Richard: the word, yeah. Pact. You know
Cláudia: when you are, when you are, when you were, like when you were a child, you heard about those Indian pacts of blood or something.
Richard: Right, a pact of friendship.
Cláudia: Yeah, so you get together to do something. So you cut your finger and then you mix the blood and then you have a pact. We didn't
Richard: do that in this way. But we were in Vienna. In some way you did do this, though.
Cláudia: Yeah, because we were traveling in Vienna. Vienna is a real romantic city.
Richard: Oh, yeah, it's a wonderful place.
Cláudia: We were in the best hotel in Vienna, which is the Sacher Hotel.
And we were like traveling and watching those operettas and all this. And so we had everything. We had youth at our favor. We were young, beautiful. We had a good family, good background, culture. Education, reasonable amount of
Richard: money to be able to travel by, even by that airplane which was Concorde from
Cláudia: Brazil to Europe, and so we had everything we could say that a person needs to be happy in this life here.
But we felt we needed to do more, that our lives were really empty if we would stay just in this human level. So we made a pact in vienna around the the year of 19 well I guess it was before in the early 1979, 79 just
Richard: just before you went to the United States,
Cláudia: yeah yeah two years before that. So uh we were visiting victor frankl too, because Viktor Frankl was a teacher, a professor, and a friend of Dr.
Keppe. So we were there, and we decided we cannot continue like this. We feel emptiness and emptiness. We need to use our knowledge, our health, the rest of our lives.
Richard: All these gifts that you talked
Cláudia: about. All the gifts in order to help God to build a better place here in this planet.
Richard: To help, not to serve. You use the word help specifically.
Cláudia: And I found it very beautiful from Dr. Keppe Singh. And I said, but
Richard: doesn't help need, does
Cláudia: God need any help?
Richard: Yeah, that's my
Cláudia: question. Yeah. Isn't he too powerful to need the help of people? What does he need the
Richard: help of? Yeah, right. And he
Cláudia: said, yes, he needs, because he cannot interfere in our choices here in this humanity. He cannot, like, take away our freedom of choice.
So he needs people.
Richard: He can't force anybody to do anything.
Cláudia: Yes, and he even asked Mary if she would accept to have Jesus. And if Mary would not have accepted to help him in his work.
Richard: He would not have forced that.
Cláudia: Jesus would not have come. Imagine. Imagine. So each one of us has an opportunity to help God in some way. Incredible.
Incredible. To think about this. This gives us
Richard: a dignity that is incredible because he's not a dictator. Yeah.
Cláudia: He's not a dictator. He's total freedom and democratic. I mean, he leaves everybody to do. So he needs help, yes, in order to do the best for his children in this planet. He needs the help of those who wish the similar things as he wishes for us, so we can help in coming to work together with him.
Richard: Do you think that maybe some of the great idealists that are listening and that are still
Cláudia: around, that they could benefit a lot from this knowledge. For sure. Idealists, activists, artists, mothers, fathers, children, adolescents. Entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs,
Richard: anyone, everyone
Cláudia: that are really wanting to be a partner of God in this enterprise. Enterprise there,
Richard: not that we're going to start talking about the fourth quarter profit and loss.
This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network, I'm loving this, hope you are too, back in a moment. We are back again, oh man you're just you're blowing my mind today because this isn't anything we planned to talk about but it's so um I don't know how to say this. You know, all my life I've had a desire for a just society.
I would say it that way. There was always this feeling that things weren't just, and I was never comfortable with that since I was young. And then somewhere along the way, as I was going through my training in university, I got the idea that, well, I don't have time for that. I've got to build my career. I've got to work. You know, we have to do that.
And so that's just going to have to wait. The just society, I guess, is going to have to wait. And I'm realizing now that this is what struck me about Dr. Keppe's book, Liberation of the People. That it called, again, this, you know, let's come together, those who want to build a just society, who want to build the true kingdom of man on earth.
Now we would say the kingdom of God, I think.
Cláudia: Yeah, we must avoid or deprive ourselves from these words because they are so misused. Yes, exactly. So
Richard: when we speak about this, people think, oh, fanatics.
Cláudia: Religious fanatics.
Richard: Bible thumpers. Yeah. But so this was the thing that struck me. You can read Dr. Keppe's book, Liberation of the People, and be totally impressed scientifically because it's an extraordinary scientific vision of the pathology of power and the powerful and the pact we make with them to create this horrible society.
But at another level, there's kind of a call there. Like, if you resonate with this, what are you doing? I mean, get off your butt. You know I and I this is the calling I think I felt and so you're articulating that in a in a much bigger way than I have articulated. I'm articulating a very kind of prosaic level, you're putting this spiritual spin on it that's so beautiful, that we are helping God to do something here, yeah beautiful isn't it,
Cláudia: yeah it's really beautiful, extraordinary.
This increases our dignity, our sense of dignity, this makes us understand and realize uh what we were meant for. And it's nothing like what we think normally, being locked up in a locked up in a like in a home taking care of children or in an office or calculating money and money and money and money, what you have to pay and what you have, what you owe, the debts and how much you have to accumulate to to be accepted and respected in society.
So this is so so artificial, so poor in terms of what we could live, yeah so poor so and it's so unhappy to live like yes we
Richard: have a whole uh champagne bottle
Cláudia: and we're uh we're we're sort of sipping the water from the ice you know. But I need to tell you before we forget that if in one hand we decided and we took responsibility, it's like a vow we did, a pact we did amongst ourselves, me and Dr.
Richard: Keppe, and with God.
Cláudia: So, we said to ourselves and to God, we will now give our lives, we will dedicate our lives to this, to do something, like in the area of science, because very few scientists stood for God, like openly, very few. And Keppe did that. At this point, he stood for like God in front of all. Declared
Richard: this.
Cláudia: Yes, and he started to write openly about this.
And he was applying like science at the service of the truth. And it was something that he never, he never stepped aside of the field of true science. He has been always a scientist, not a religious man. But after he decided this, many people thought, what is happening? And he had all this fame. He was in the medias being accepted by the academic world.
Before this, his
Richard: science. Before
Cláudia: this. And after, he started to receive attacks. And we started to be attacked and attacked and attacked, heavily attacked. And murder attempts and persecutions, slandering. People
Richard: questioning that he was not a scientist anymore. Yes.
Cláudia: This must have happened a lot. And some people claiming I was the guilty one. That took
Richard: him away of his scientific... You led him astray, the wanton woman.
I could just imagine. This is funny. It's
Cláudia: funny now. I'm sure it wasn't so funny
Richard: at the time. But
Cláudia: we had, like we started, at the same time, we had this sometimes ecstasy to be able to serve him in a scientific way and see how many people we could be of help. Like in healing people, like in psychosomatic medicine, and being able to see God through psychosomatic medicine and almost to prove God, his existence, by psychosomatic medicine or by economics, the divine economics, which is the true laws of justice and development and progress and
Richard: cosmic entrepreneurs.
Like breaking up the barriers and all these
Cláudia: misconceptions and preconceptions and all these things that hold people back from the true accomplishment in the planet. So we saw that this could be of enormous help to everybody in society and we were helping. So when the powerful people noticed how much the science would be of help and they would miss the grip, no, they would
Richard: miss...
They couldn't get, they would lose control, lose
Cláudia: control. They would lose the grip on... Yeah.
Richard: Yeah. When the powerful people realized that with your... They got angry. Then you saw the
reaction.
Cláudia: They really got upset.
Richard: Yeah, because this is, you know, we see so many critiques of modern day society all over the place. And there are people, they critique and they talk about bad systems and the injustice.
But they don't talk about this aspect. No. And so this is... And
Cláudia: they don't go to the point as Dr. Keppe
Richard: goes. No, that's true.
Cláudia: And many people imitate Dr. Keppe without quoting him. Yeah. Many people, because if they did, they would have to give credit to other things that Dr. Keppe also says. And if you agree with something in the field of economics, you use just that.
Because if people go to the source, they will learn not only things about economics,
Richard: they will learn things
Cláudia: that will
Richard: disturb other people. So people use and they steal
many times, openly steal ideas of Dr. Keppe. They use the ideas without quoting the source. But, as I told you, we decided to do a work that
Cláudia: is beyond this social glory. And
Richard: your work is very open, too.
I mean, you guys produce your TV shows, all of Dr. Keppe's books. I mean, they're translating them in Russian now. With uh you know so
Cláudia: we have 49 countries, more than 300 radio TV stations in 11 languages, so it's impossible for 50 well he's working for 50 years but we decided to
Richard: start in in the early 80s or 79, so this how long 30 years yeah 30 30 80 30 some odd years 32.
So we
Cláudia: are working for all this time and publishing books and speaking on media, so even if they want to deny and not quote our names or something the the influence is there. And mostly because we go to the to the point, we go there and we can be with Dr Capi Science, we can be we are able to go to the troop to the very core of the problems.
Richard: I think nobody has seen that this factor of um making like a pact with God so science would be a divine science, economics would be divine economics, education would be divine economics, bringing the divine laws into every aspect of human endeavor. I don't know any I don't know anybody who's talking
Cláudia: about that. Yeah
Richard: yeah except Dr Keppe. And you and here. And our
Cláudia: group now.
Richard: And you belong to this group. Yeah, sure I feel we're
Cláudia: doing this. I'm very fond of you.
Richard: Me too. So we're here every week. Trying to talk about these things. And you were saying before the program that Obama was speaking in England. Yes. About this sort of trilateral. Different trilateral now. Between America, Great Britain and Israel Israel.
This is the New Jerusalem.
Cláudia: Israel. This is Israel.
Richard: This is the concept of Israel. This is what he said.
Cláudia: Israel is like the chosen people, the God's chosen people. Yes, yes. But, you know, there is a difference in here. Because Obama says, we will lead the world. Like, we will continue leading the world on the top of the planet. Israel, the concept of Israel, is really the other way around of this.
Richard: Yes, it's not about the power at all.
Cláudia: It's the concept that in the planet, one day, there would be no human power, in terms as they understand it, and we have understood it so far. The concept, the very concept of Israel is that one day would come where God would be worshipped by all in truth and spirit through the inner selves of all peoples.
So I can tell you, Richard, that the Holy Spirit is the God of all. No religions, no institutions. God and the Holy Spirit is the God of all human beings. So there would be one day where all the worshipers, and those are the beloved ones of God, Jesus said this, that would worship him not in a church, not in an institution, not
Richard: in
Cláudia: a place, but through their inner selves in goodness, beauty and truth.
So this is the children that God prefers because they are in this intimacy being like, and we must be very humble, you know, to resonate a little bit with God, to hear him. God is simple, God is very simple, and we need to be simple and humble if we want to hear Him. We need to clean our minds and to take away all this garbage, all this pretentious thoughts in order to hear Him.
Richard: And this then, this fifth empire you write about in your books will be a fifth empire you write, Not Dr. Keppe so much. You
Cláudia: specifically bring this, right? I'm the witch one. I'm the mystical.
Richard: This fifth empire you talk about is not what the secret societies, what the powerful structures think about the new world order, but a true Jerusalem, a true new Jerusalem would be a Jerusalem of the people, would be a union of the people in spirit, in resonance with this divine kingdom that already exists.
Cláudia: When Keppe writes about this, he writes about the third phase of humanity, which is the phase of science united with philosophy and theology. He speaks about the third person of God being like the most proeminent, and this would be the Holy Spirit. And this third phase would like complete the Trinity, the Holy Trinity. So humanity would be mature in order to have the three persons of God active in the planet and recognized and, well, acknowledged by humanity.
So the three people or the three persons of God and the Holy Trinity, which is one God, this is very difficult to understand. Even St. Augustine said it's almost impossible to understand this Holy Trinity. But there would be a time where the spirit of God would be the ruler. Would be, when we speak
Richard: of ruler,
Cláudia: we understand,
Richard: we understand
Cláudia: dictators when we think
Richard: about rules and rulers, but he
Cláudia: would be
Richard: the natural presence.
We would follow him naturally and
Cláudia: we would feel his full presence and action and influence in the planet. And the Holy Spirit would bring with him God the Father and God the Son as one together. So we are coming to this time. Richard Jones.
Richard: Beautiful. Beautiful spirit.
Cláudia: Buckholds. As you said, you have the buckholds. Seatbelts. How did you
Richard: say this? Buckled
Cláudia: belts?
Buckled. Seatbelts
Richard: buckled. Buckle your seatbelts.
Cláudia: We're
Richard: in for a
Cláudia: ride.
Richard: And that is our program for this week. Wonderful to have you with us. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is the program. We're on the Positive World Radio Network.
We will talk to you again next week. God willing. All the best to you and see you then. Bye-bye for now.
