Richard Lloyd Jones: From Brazil, it's Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Well, the feeding frenzy arising from the charges against Dominique Strauss-Kahn for allegedly imposing himself sexually on a young cleaning woman. I marvel again at how we in the public rise up in collective indignation at suggestions of sexual impropriety, while hardly glancing up from our breakfast cereal at revelations of the lies that pushed us to war.
What is this incongruity, I have wondered? Of course, not diminishing the seriousness of the charges in any way. But cognizant that the fury and severity of the legal reaction and the swift and ruthless media condemnation probably suggest that more is at play here than first appearances show, I have gone in search of deeper explanations. Dante explored well the quest to overcome sin and the difficulties of doing so, and I feel a little of his moral courage would suit us well in this consideration.
How can we look at what's going on in the situation with consciousness, humility, and even wisdom? Well, that's what we'll try to do today. Sex, lies, and the real deadly sins. Today, on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Our program is produced weekly from our studios at the International Society of Analytical Trilogy. And, well, I do miss the odd week or so when things get a little too busy for me down here, but I do my best to publish every week, and I appreciate you who are listening greatly.
We are streaming on the Positive World Radio Network. Of course, too, you can find us there at pwrnradio.com.
What I'd like you to do is drop me a line and let me know what you'd like to hear or read about on our site or here on our program. That's very nice feedback for me to have here. So feel free, joneshealing at gmail.com. Well, the bulk of our show today will be a discussion about the consciousness we can take from the DSK affair, as it's being called, Dominique Strauss-Kahn.
It's illuminating this perspective we can bring in looking at the situation through the lens of the science of psychosociopathology developed by Norberto Keppe. A couple of comments first. Not sure how many of you know more about Strauss-Kahn than you're reading in the papers, but an interesting journalist and professor out of Uganda, Dr. Kihira Nkuba, wrote a week or so ago about DSK's prominent efforts to reduce the importance of the U.S.
Dollar in world currency reserves. That's not so popular with American financial policy power brokers, of course. And it's interesting to reflect that Saddam Hussein had the same sacrilegious idea in switching from the dollar to the euro about a year before the bombs were launched on Baghdad. It's also important to see, as Dr. Nakuba mentions in his article, that Gaddafi did the same thing in initiating a movement in Africa to bypass the dollar and the euro and use a new currency there, the gold dinar.
Any journalist worth his or her salt would smell something fishy there that deserves more investigation, but there's precious little of that in the mainstream media today. Also important to note that Strauss-Kahn was highly featured, prominently featured in Charles Ferguson's documentary Inside Job about the financial coup d'etat that occurred in 2008 where billions of our tax dollars were taken.
From him. So he's a prominent guy that's probably under attack here, much more going on than meets the eye. Does this make you a little bit frustrated or angry? You know, I don't want to sort of suggest we go out in the streets with guns, but maybe we need to get a little bit more socially conscious. So I was reading Stefan Hessel's Indignez-vous, Get Indignant, his little booklet that he's written, Publishing Phenomenon in France, about having more social conscience, and thought I would start with that today before we get to Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco.
Social activism is very necessary today. So I'm going to open our program with an interview I conducted with Per-Erik Persson, a human ecologist from Sweden who works with the JAK Members Bank, a no-interest loan bank in Sweden. He's also written a book about social activism amongst ceramics workers in Argentina.
It might be a nice beginning to our program today. You know, just in talking with you, Per-Erik, and reading your thesis, I can see that you're a person, and you talk a lot about it in your thesis, you talk about changing the world, sustainable future, taking action. You think a lot about people solving their problems and trying to resolve them. What do you think about people in the first world who sit back and try to tell people in these developing countries what they should do with their situations?
It's very easy, and I saw this, I recognized it in myself. I was hoping to find a consciousness towards nature, because they had a cooperation with the original people of Argentina. And I hoped to see that the workers could then take decisions trying to preserve the environment where they were exploiting the clay, for example.
Which I didn't find because they had more urgent matters to address and I had really no right to judge them by this anyway because what they did was more important than just address the environmental question at that moment and I saw many people coming to Argentina judging their movement being disappointed by some of the actions taken decisions made and so on and And I became aware of this and it helped me to understand that we should really try to make something our own by our own first.
And then we can judge others if we want to. We are very idealistic, but we live mostly in inside our heads. It's very easy to talk and we can form millions of organizations just talking. But what's important is to make a change. So that's what I brought with me back to Sweden. I remember
Richard: the policy that was put forward by a British member of parliament to privatize the Amazon as the solution.
This is being proposed in many circles now. He's not the only one. I don't remember the name of the minister, but he proposed this as an idea. And I was talking to a number of Brazilian students of mine. They said, "well, maybe it's a good idea. We're destroying the rainforest, and maybe it's an idea we need to look at." And I said, "let me ask you a question, my students." I said, "where are the great forests of England?
What's happened to them? What's happened to the great forests of Germany? They've been destroyed by the policies that have been spread and are instituted primarily by the first world economic system led by the United States of America and before that, England." So this is a big issue that I think that we're talking about now. How do you sit back and look at somebody else and tell them what to do?
You need to get in with your hands and work in it. And it's not so simple, is it?
No, it's really not. And that's a reason why I wanted to write about this factory. And after the thesis, I rewrote it in Swedish. So in a way to reach a broader public. Because even though it is a story from a third world country, I hope that it could inspire some people in Sweden, workers of factories, to question privatization, to question whether it's really necessary to move the factory and move the production, to question this, which is today seen as something very logical and natural.
And really, it isn't. And also, I focus on the law. There is one law that I like very much, and I think most countries have it. It's the law of expropriation, which is used very much. It says that "if something that is private needs to be changed, you need to use this for a common good, you have the right to do so."
This is a direct conflict inside law because you have the right of private property and then you have the common good. So in this law you kind of have the conflict very explicit stated. And it's used mainly for infrastructural projects, like you need to build a highway somewhere, this is in the common good, of course, economy needs to be run and transport and so on.
So no matter who is the owner of this private property, we can take control of it and build a highway over it. In the same way the workers in Argentina argue that the factory is a common good. It has been paid for by the Argentinian taxpayers. They have given loans. All the subsidies is state-given. So why not take the factory and make it a common good and use the law
Richard: of expropriation?
In your time here in Brazil, short time, only a week, what have you come away with in terms of Norberto Keppe's view of the problem has expanded your view.
How are you seeing that now after being here for a week or so?
I'm very impressed. And ever since I first heard about it, I was very attracted by the idea to form a trilogical company because we often feel trapped. We feel that we live in an unknown world. Just society. But even so, we take very few initiatives to enhance our position.
The trilogical companies really prove that it's possible in any society, it has been proven in many countries, to gain control, to form a rhythm in life which is more in accordance with what you can cope with and you address all the problems that you face in life and you address them as a group you're not alone you're not left alone with your problems and i think it's been very interesting and inspiring yeah when i first came here i
Richard: felt the same thing i i didn't know what was a what a trilogical company was i came here for ideals and suddenly there's a like a working structure where people are actually working together for themselves, not for some faceless shareholders anywhere or somebody who has all the money and so is controlling all the situation.
It's a very workable way to get people working together. The big challenge is that we have to find structures within which people can do that. And these people in Argentina are finding this. I'm sure there are many examples of this around the world, of workers uniting to take over the factories or take over the schools or whatever it is that they're doing.
And we're developing that here in Brazil too to take control of our company, our financial results. Control of your situation. What's the way to deal with this argument? I'm only one person. Never going to change. What can I do? It's just a disaster. It's corruption everywhere. The laws are totally against me. How can one person fight that?
Yeah, that was one of the strongest motivations behind writing the book because my father wouldn't read it because it was a kind of academical language.
So I rewrote the book and I dedicated it to my father because he really has that feeling that it's impossible to do anything. Yet he has all these ethics. I mean, he criticizes and he does it in a good way, but he does not realize that he needs to form friendships that are more than just friendships. We consider ourselves to have a lot of friends.
But when it really matters, when you find yourself in a critical time in your life, who are your friends? Where are they? And I saw my father being sacked from his work. Anyhow he was alone in this and I don't think that the individualistic culture is sustainable. Throughout history people want to be part of something, they want to identify themselves with something, with someone else.
And we need to do this even stronger. We need to see through the identification with brands, with successful athletes, everybody knows the names of famous actors and you don't even know the name of your neighbor.
And that's where to start. Just tell
Richard: us a little bit about the bank you're working with because this is I think a policy that you're instituting in this bank that really is one of the cornerstones of Norberto Kepes economic policy too. Tell us a bit
about this. Yeah, I work in something called the JAK member bank. It started with an organization in 1965 in Sweden that was against the use of interest.
This can be studied in Dr. Keppe's work. But the interesting thing was that the person that started this organization, they weren't satisfied by just speaking about this. So they started to give loans without interest, proving that it's possible, which is a very strong argument. And today since 1997 we have the right from the Swedish government to call ourselves a bank. And we use no interest.
You get no interest when you save and you don't pay any when you take the loan.
You pay administrational costs because there are some and we need to pay our professionals. But in the other way you can trust the bank's services since it's approved by the government and follows the financial inspection. And today we have 35 000 members. At the moment we are growing by 2 000 a year in a time where interest in Sweden has been very low.
It's a very inspiring work where we also educate members. Instead of use a lot of money on marketing we have positions like the one I have, the youth coordinator, that educate young members about economy. And the person that gain trust in us, we know that they will speak about the bank and they will deliver the message.
Richard: Thanks, Per-Erik Persson. We are back on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head in just a few moments.
You're listening on the Positive World Radio Network.
Back in a moment. We are on the Positive World Radio Network, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is our program.
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That's really what we try to do in our program. And we've been doing this now, Cláudia and I have been doing this particular version of our program for about, this is our 26th program or so, so once a week for 26 weeks, that's a considerable amount of time. And before that, we've been producing our podcast, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, since about, my gosh, 2006, Cláudia, a long time we've been working.
Time goes fast. Time goes very fast, yeah. So, you know, I'm saying this to you. To let you know about our website. And to let other people know about these programs. I know that people who discover the programs. After some time, they say, "wow, I had no idea this was out there. And now I've got all these programs to listen to. And it's great." So this is your responsibility, you who are listening.
The media is not doing what we're trying to do here. And this needs to be done. So, please. Now, Cláudia, Dominique Strauss-Kahn is the latest in maybe a series of peccadillos, we say, that has been caught. And, you know, you can lie about the reasons for war, and nothing will happen to you. But heaven forbid that you should even be accused, by the way, not convicted, accused of doing something sexual, and the horse manure hits the fan, as we say, in a polite way.
But
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: this is a
Richard: typical gossip of the United States, you know, Richard? Yeah, it is.
Cláudia: In Europe, this is not this way. Especially now, we see that French people, the majority, are really angry against the United States because doing what they did with Strokan, they interfered directly in the politics, economics, the everyday life of French people. Because they were waiting, they were looking forward to have this Strokan as their new president.
So they interfered in something extremely serious, not only the national, international monetary fund, but this is a question of politics, but I mean international politics. But this is interfering directly, even in the lives, in the side of the households of every French family. So they feel this is overdone.
Richard: Overkill. Overkill, we say. It's too much. Too
Cláudia: much. Too much interference.
It's abuse of power. So you would say, well, but... But
Richard: wait a minute here, Cláudia.
Cláudia: Wait a minute, you should... He was naked in the hotel
Richard: room. The human rights
Cláudia: of that lady that was the cleaner of this Sofitel hotel and so on and so forth. What is amazing, Richard, is the weight they give to problems and pathologies in this planet.
Richard: Especially these kind of
Cláudia: sexual pathologies.
They would commit a mass murder in a war, starting an unreasonable, unfair war, as they did in Iraq, when they claimed there were hidden weapons in Iraq, which were never found. And so many civilians were killed. And
Richard: probably they knew they didn't exist in the first place. So
Cláudia: when they did that, no problem. Nobody was accused. Nobody was charged by mass murder.
In Vietnam, they mass murdered a lot of people. And when I say mass murder, I'm not speaking only about Iraqis, about Vietnamese.
I'm speaking also about those soldiers, American soldiers, that went to give their lives to what? And
Richard: even the ones who didn't die when they came back from Vietnam and Iraq.
Cláudia: Totally screwed up. Totally, totally destroyed. So, those problems are considered minor or untouchable problems, unquestionable problems. And these are real, true, evil problems in the planet. When we see so many people being expelled from their homes because there's speculation, real estate speculation, when the banking system throws away all the families from their homes because they cannot afford the mortgage and all this speculation about their homes and so on and so forth.
What about that? Is this unquestionable? What about poisoning so many people with toxics in the water, in the food? What about threatening the growth of wheat, trigo?
Richard: Yeah, wheat. That
Cláudia: is being threatened because of not only world climate changes, because of pollution and so forth, but also because of these transgenic effects. What about killing all the bees in the planet because of the toxics and
Richard: the transgenic? And microwaves. Yeah.
Cláudia: So are those unquestionable subjects, are those subjects less important than a lady that felt violated by a man in her?
Well, he didn't kill her anyhow, he wasn't pleasant the way he acted, but is this more important than what we are questioning here now?
Richard: Yeah, you know, I was preparing a little bit today. I was watching an interview. Just to underline this, underscore this, Cláudia, Charles Ferguson is a documentary filmmaker who made the film about the financial crisis of 2008. It's called Inside Job, where Dominique is featured rather prominently in that documentary talking about the real problems in the financial system of the United States, kind of blowing the whistle.
Interesting now that they're attacking him, isn't it?
Cláudia: It's their response.
Richard: Yeah, so we'll come back to that maybe, but let me just get to this point. And Charles Ferguson seems like an interesting filmmaker. When he received the Academy Award for this documentary, his speech said, "you know, I have to say at the beginning that in all the stuff that's come out about this fiasco in 2008, this incredible incompetence of the government, all these kinds of things, not one banking person has been put in jail.
Not one thing has been done." And, you know, there are stories now about the Mexican drug cartel, cocaine, supporting the banking.
Cláudia: And from what we understand, Strokan denounced the situation. Yeah,
Richard: he said that "there's too
Cláudia: much deregulation, that there's not enough ethics." So now they gave their response against him.
And what is very impressive is that millions of people know this, and still this continues happening. So the guy, he is not only unbalanced in the way he behaves with women, of course. This is an imbalance, a form of
Richard: imbalance.
Cláudia: But he's not alone. There are millions of men in this situation and women also because this is very much encouraged in our society.
A charming French man, powerful, prestigious, because he is really charming. So being encouraged by his friends and society and other women to behave like this. What is Viagra about, for instance? What are those films, those movies, all these values that our present society stimulates? So this is the same thing as they do with youngsters. They do the best they can to make young people be hooked on drugs, and then they put them in jail as if it was their fault.
So, you know, Richard, this world is really, really upside down. It's really upside down. And I want to speak also about something that normally people don't speak about today, which is one of the perspectives Keppe gives to this phenomena. Because when media, American media, mostly North American media, give the power to this news and do all this catastrophe around something like this as they did against Clinton and there must have had some hidden reason to do this with Clinton when they did with Monica Lewinsky and Clinton and they
Richard: do every
Cláudia: time they do this they have a reason, a hidden reason and we know this with this Strokan was very clear and everybody has an idea what is happening but why the media the owned by those powerful by the way the
Richard: american media owned by the
Cláudia: powerful but why american people mostly american and some other peoples to a percentage of other peoples to give so much interest and are reading and knowing and And there is this huge fascination about this.
So that's what I want to speak about today.
Richard: Yeah, because the same thing happened really in a way to Michael Jackson, right? He was a big star and suddenly, you know, this whole thing with...
Cláudia: About pedophilia. Yeah, having children. How many pedophilic people are in the planet? You can't imagine. How many North Americans now, presently, are pedophilic, hidden? And even sometimes they don't practice openly this or even they don't have this formal practice, but they have this in their minds.
So this is a huge sickness in the planet. It's to be addressed as a sickness, as a disease, and not as something only criminal.
Richard: We need to find out why we're so fixated on this, Cláudia, because, as you say, there are so many more serious problems, even more serious sins, if you want to look at this in religious terminology, pathologies if we want to talk about it scientifically, so many more serious things to focus on.
The the lack of ethics that we see in in government and on the financial markets today is formidable. So why this big light being shone on this one little problem? Well maybe that's a question we could discuss a little bit more, Cláudia, because I think the issue is fundamental. It was Freud who really led us down this path of discussing the libido as the source of our human difficulties.
But it's not. Dr. Keppe has really clarified this a lot because what he's determined is he's determined with all symptomatic things, sexual peccadillos, deviances, these are symptoms of something larger than that. Just like with our physical body, you know, if we have a symptom that shows up in the physical body, this is demonstrating to us something prior. And so that's what we have to get at.
And so Keppe has defined a real new psychology.
Maybe for the first time we're seeing a psychology, not a physiology, not biology, not sociology, but psychology, looking at what's going on prior to the factor. And this is what's really really important. But even beyond this, as we were saying, there's this whole aspect of dealing with the real serious problems inside the human being, which are not sexual problems. This is not the fundamental problem of of human society today.
We have enormous problems with dishonesty, enormous problems with being unethical, economic systems that are unethical, as we discussed. So there are much more serious problems than looking at this aspect only of sexuality. And so we're hiding something from this focus on sexuality that we're not wanting to see much, much deeper. And that is what we would like to get into, which we will do when we come back.
We are on the Positive World Radio Network and very happy to be there. The program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. I'm back with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco in just a moment. Don't go away. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, we're on the Positive World Radio Network. Very happy to be streaming there, by the way.
They're doing very wonderful things. You can check out a number of new programs appearing there on the website at pwrnradio.com.
We'd love to hear from you. So go there and check it out and join our Facebook page and all those kinds of things. So Cláudia, the 64 million dollar question, why all this focus on sexual peccadillo's?
Not to justify them by the way, to but the if we put them into perspective ...with these kinds of crimes you talked about
Cláudia: earlier.
Yeah, like the perversions.
Richard: People love perversions. Yeah. What's happening there? What's going
Cláudia: on? You see this happening for a long, long time. If you see in Judaism and then in Christianity and Islamic groups and religions, you see this very much enhanced. The sexual sin. Jews always gave an enormous importance to sex. And to potents, masculine potents, and many wives. And on the other hand, extremely hypocritical because what they did, they want to hide from everybody.
And what they saw in women, for instance, still now in the Middle East, they attack ferociously because they are hypocritical and they don't want to see the attachment towards perversions that they themselves have and
Richard: give value. Okay, so let's make sure we understand that because this is like a new way of thinking about this. The sexual perversions, the attachment to sexuality and not necessarily good sexuality is inside the men of the culture, maybe the women too, but inside the men of the culture.
They don't want to see that inside themselves so they project that all this is happening inside the women, which is why they have to be covered and protected.
Cláudia: Yes,
Richard: yes. That's what it is.
Cláudia: Yes, so they get united and they have all these parties and this, well, bacchanal, as we see in Portuguese. Yeah,
Richard: it's a bacchanalia.
Cláudia: But they don't want to confess this openly.
This is all hidden. It's like sexual mafias. And then when Christ came, he was always forgiven. Women, prostitutes, and women that sin. And he also quoted many times, you that never sinned, then threw the first stone, etc.,
Richard: etc. Great story, yes, classic story.
Cláudia: So seeing the hypocrisy of these attitudes. So after Christ, this didn't improve that much because Christian religious people conserved, preserved this hypocritical attachment to sexuality that Jewish people had.
And so did the Islamic people. Then we had this revolt that women's liberation spoke about, that women were really mad against this discrepancy and discrimination, seeing women as the sinners, as the symbol of sin, the original sin, and dangerous and prostitutes, and having desires that would only be the right for the man to have.
Richard: And destabilizing the family with these kinds of
Cláudia: things, yes.
So what do we see here? Women's liberation brought this idea that the rights should be equal. So women should be liberated also for the sexual life, have as many partners as they pleased, and even homosexual relationships, et cetera, et cetera. And what happened is that we don't see, unfortunately, people getting more balanced or more happy with this. And this women's liberation came after Freud gave an enormous importance to sexual accomplishment or sexual maturity or sexual satisfaction for the human psychological and social balance.
So sex seems to be one of the biggest attractions over the attitudes and thoughts and feelings of human beings. And so this shows a big decay in our situation. Not because sex should be something wrong or unpleasant or ugly. No, no at all. All instincts are good. But sex in the life of people is more or less the same thing as eating, as the instinctive needs.
And this importance that people give to sex is above the normal. It's beyond the normal. And it's a huge deviation of what is really important. And we have been speaking here for many times, there are the spiritual virtues, if you look at it under the perspective of sanity, or the spiritual sins, if we see under the perspective or denial of denial and pathology.
Richard: Right. Not the sexual sins, these deeper questions of ethics, of values. These sins are much more important to see.
Cláudia: Yes, arrogance, envy, avarice, all this. Hate. Hatred, hate.
Richard: Aggression,
Cláudia: violence. Aggression, laziness, whatever.
Richard: Voracity.
Cláudia: Voracity, depriving people from their rights, from their needs, lack of charity, lack of mercy.
Richard: Setting up an economic system that puts many people
Cláudia: in poverty, yes, abject poverty. Yeah. With a few people at the top making billions and billions. Yes. So these are really the sins that Jesus spoke about.
Richard: And nobody's marching on the streets about those things, Cláudia.
Cláudia: Nobody. No. So you see that Christianity was not fully lived and understood so far. Because Jesus Christ spoke really and openly about those sins. And he was very tolerant towards the sins of alcoholics, prostitutes, and so forth. Now, I'm not advocating sexual
Richard: perversions, but I'm saying that
Cláudia: behind this attack is what we say a big envy and this inversion.
So people attack other people, not because of their, exactly because of what they do wrong, but because of the envy they feel towards that person. Like a man, strokan, powerful, prestigious, famous, charming. Powerful. And sexually free, to some extent, to some extent. But he has all the components, all our envy, envies about. So behind this and deep down inside everybody who is attacking him, there is this desire to be him.
To be like him and thinking that the prestigious situation he got, he got out of his corruption and not because of something good that he had accomplished, probably. So what they envy in him are not the good things that they did.
Richard: His competence, his hard work, his dedication. No. Never.
Cláudia: No. But they are envying his...
Richard: What they see as his corruption.
Cláudia: But he must have some corruption as everybody has.
But they think how much he is enjoying corruption, as if all the happiness and fulfillment and advantage would come from corruption. Yeah,
Richard: how much he's getting out of his corruption that they would like
Cláudia: to have too. Yes, and they are angry because sometimes they can't
Richard: have it. Because either
Cláudia: their consciousness or their conscience do not allow them to have, or because socially speaking they cannot have it, but they have this deep down idea and desire saying he is enjoying his corruption and why I cannot do the same.
Richard: He's getting an advantage from that. I see this in a very small way. Because this is a difficult concept to grasp the first time you've heard this. I see this a little bit in—San Paolo is famous for traffic. I mean, the traffic here is legendary. Anybody who—our friend Bob Butler is coming soon, and he's always commenting on the traffic.
So when everybody's stuck in traffic, you have these ne'er-do-wells who want to get past the system by driving on the shoulder, which is very dangerous. And they drive very fast on their shoulder to avoid all of this traffic and people get very, very irritated with them thinking that they're getting an advantage by doing that, doing something that's very, very dangerous. And so it's the same thing that Cláudia is talking about here that we think that there's an advantage in being corrupt or what we perceive as being corrupt and so that's what we want.
Not the dedication, not the hard work, not the sacrifice that it takes to have a position like Strokan had, Not that. We think that he got there by being nefarious in
Cláudia: some way. You know, now we have to say that the system is corrupt. And you normally don't see honest people on the top of places.
But the problem is that the people think that their position and being corrupt is the best. It brings them all... Um, also. Satisfaction. All advantages. Possible. So this is the big inversion and mistake. Because a corrupt person, he can never get satisfaction from corruption. Nobody can. Nobody can. So this is impossible. This is an inversion. One can be corrupt in many ways.
And being corrupt is corrupting our own happiness. And in in the moment you accept to corrupt yourself in some way you are corrupting your nature. You are corrupting your essence. You are corrupting your happiness. You are corrupting your good. So you will miss that integrity and the virtue you lost. You will miss that. And people normally don't think this. They envy the powerful.
They envy the corrupt because they I think everything they laugh and they are happy about is all about their corruption.
And they can't even laugh, but not out of happiness, but out of their craziness and alienation and inversion and stupidity. Imagine if this trocan would understand how inverted he is towards sexual life. He would never risk his career the way he did. Because he fell in his own trap. He's a slave of his own pathology. And this is a pathology. This is to be treated.
So if you understand this in this way, you will never attack a person because he is pathological, because he's a sexual pervert, or because he's a pedophilic, because it's a disease, and the person is suffering a lot out of this. And we all are suffering from something like this, Cláudia. We all have problems around this area. It's human. So we need to see to address this as an inversion, one big inversion that we suffer in this planet.
And if we censor this, as the church did, and the Islamic people do and the Jewish do, if we censor this, the result will be the enhancement, the increase
Richard: of the problem.
What we resist persists, right? Well, we try to hide
Cláudia: in places. Gains a big force. Now, so you have two problems here. One is the problem that everybody has inside and projects onto a sexual scandal into something like this, like Clinton, like Strokan now.
Richard: Now they're going after Schwarzenegger a bit for his…
Cláudia: Yes, poor guy. Oh, my God. So how many people have had this problem in their lives?
Richard: Kennedy, they went after, they attacked Kennedy, Martin
Cláudia: Luther King. And they always do this around sex because sex is a deviation. Sex
Richard: hides the biggest problems of all. Sex arises the interest. It raises interest. Yeah, well, it's got a lot of heat. Sex, ooh, sexy.
Cláudia: So everybody wants to know this. So media take advantage from this and the powerful too. The evil powerful.
The evil, the biggest evil powerful, I mean.
Richard: Sure.
And they use this. They use
Cláudia: this against the other powerful. Sure. Because people have enormous interest around this. And people have interest around this because they think this is really spicy. This is really a perversion that they want and enjoy. If they cannot enjoy in their own private lives because either they don't have the same charm, they don't have the same money, the same prestige.
Or they are religious Pharisees or whatever reason, but deep down they enjoy
Richard: that. Spicy delicious.
Cláudia: Spicy.
Richard: Who's sleeping with Marilyn Monroe this
Cláudia: weekend? And they are saying, no, of course not, because they are hypocritical, because it's not rational, because it's really hidden, but this is what psychopathology reveals, our inversions.
Richard: And this must explain to the enormous, massive interest in pornography. Oh, for
Cláudia: sure.
And those sites, pedophilic sites, millions and millions. They are all sick people, inverted people that are destroying their lives, not only the lives of those kids, but also their lives. And sometimes even worse, because their kids or those innocent kids, they are attacked, but they can. And many times they preserve their virtues, their purity, their innocence in their souls. And those people who are attacking them, the pedophilic ones, they
Richard: kill their
Cláudia: inner life, the soul and the happiness and the future life.
Richard: We're back in just a moment. A discussion about the inversion of our sexual view. Never thought it could be so spicy, did you? We're back in just a moment. I'm Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network. We are back Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We are on the Positive World Radio Network.
You know that by now.
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and I'm joined, as always, by Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt-Fresheko. And we're having an illuminating, maybe for some of us, a totally refreshing, liberating view of what's going on. Because we are really lost, Cláudia, in this fascination we have with sexuality. If they want to sell a movie, they make a movie controversial.
Violence and sex, always together. Sure.
Cláudia: Really, really horror movies, violent movies with blood and attacks. You have sex together.
Richard: Well, Dracula is totally saying that.
Cláudia: Yeah, Dracula, as you say. Totally. But why? Because this attracts this inverted inner life of people. They feel attracted to that. They feel sexually raised, stimulated by these things.
Richard: Excited by this. Yeah. So
Cláudia: that's what they do.
Richard: And we have now music stars, Madonna, she combined this whole thing of purity, like a virgin, with sexuality. I mean, this whole thing of a virgin, totally in white, but being sexual at the same time, Lady Gaga, we see it everywhere now.
Cláudia: So why people see this as the worst sin, the dirtiest sin? I see Lucifer behind this because Lucifer has no body, has no sex.
So he attacks the body of mankind because this should be something very beautiful.
Richard: You mean he stimulates us to be more concerned about sexual peccadillos because it's something that he can't have.
Cláudia: Or that hides his worst sins.
Richard: Hides his worst sins.
Cláudia: Because he has not this sexual sin. He cannot have it. He doesn't have bodies. So he perverts human minds in order to destroy something that he envies.
Like, you know, sex is an instinct. Sex is a part of nature.
And sex is not only something that can bring pleasure, but also can involve affection. And this really triggers the anger of Lucifer, the envy of Lucifer. So he really wants to destroy this in our humanity and also he uses sex to hide the worst sins that are related to him like envy, arrogance, megalomania, delirious attitudes, lack of mercy, pleasure in killing, pleasure in destroying.
Somebody
Richard: who's pitiless, who has no compassion for anybody.
Cláudia: So, you see, those big sins that are closer to Lucifer are hidden behind this. Because as you said, nobody enjoys speaking about the lack of charity of some person or the exploitation or that that
Richard: person built his fortune out of exploiting
Cláudia: other people. They even see those people as models in society. They praised them.
They almost worshipped them. Those millionaires, lunatic millionaires that build fortunes inside the United States, they build out of their lack of mercy, destroying, killing, enslaving thousands, sometimes millions of people.
You
Richard: know, and these real sins, to use that religious term, these real pathologies that are really serious in our society are not the sexual ones. Obviously, we have problems with sexual tourism and selling children into slavery. These are serious psychological sick problems. But they're not sexual problems. They're actually problems of power and of avarice, these kinds. They're deeper problems than sexual problems.
Rape too. Rape is not a sexual problem. It's a power problem. It's another difficulty. This man, Charles Ferguson... And
Cláudia: envy sometimes. And envy
Richard: too. Because raping,
Cláudia: it's like attacking the beauty, the innocence. Right.
Richard: Destroying the purity in some
Cláudia: way. And they do this all the time in many ways. It's not only through sex. It's mostly through other means.
Richard: We're doing this with...
Nature now, Cláudia.
Cláudia: Yeah, nature. My gosh. Smoking, alcohol, drugs, exploiting people. My gosh. Oh,
Richard: my gosh. This Charles Ferguson, who did this really quite extraordinary documentary, that he actually admitted he had to pull back on, because if he went too far to show what was really going on, the people, the Americans, would not accept it, because it was so strong. Strong. He said, "of course, I think this is a way they have, again, of mitigating the real problem so we don't see it." But he was asked a very interesting question by Charlie Rose, who's an interviewer in the United States, said, "what didn't you know about the financial meltdown of 2008 that you came to know in making your film?" And he said "there was one thing, two things really, But one thing was particularly surprising and shocking at how low the ethical level of the world financial system was."
He said "this was a shock to him." And so I have to say, "we know everything about the sexual malfeasance of everybody in power that we want to attack. They went after Kennedy big on this. Martin Luther King has been attacked by this. And
Cláudia: mostly by Americans. And
Richard: this is interesting to see that the United States mostly
Cláudia: does this kind of service.
And the other countries, they are more balanced.
Richard: Because
Cláudia: Mitterrand, he had three wives, two...
Richard: Mistresses, right?" "Yeah."
Cláudia: "Mistresses, yeah. Yeah, almost three families. And everybody knew
Richard: that. And what? They didn't take care of this. They didn't care about this. So what? So what?" So here we have this incredible ethical level of the American financial system, particularly investment banking. And nobody's talking about that.
I mean, Goldman Sachs and these other big companies.
Huge immorality. Oh, my God. This
Cláudia: is immoral.
Richard: Immoral. This is evil.
Cláudia: This is immorally evil. They
Richard: created securities designed to fail, knowing they would fail, and then bet on them failing and made billions. But didn't tell the people who were buying the securities that they were designed to fail. It's totally corrupt, Cláudia, and he was totally surprised by this. And I was thinking to ask you, what can we know from Norberto Keppe's science that would let us not be surprised by this?
These people in power, they have a lot of problems, much more serious than their sexual difficulties, right?
Cláudia: What is problematic in a powerful person is, like, eccentric. And if you are like a middle-class person, you are seen as crazy, as psychotic and put in an institution, a mental institution or you need to go to a psychiatrist.
And anything is acceptable in a rich person, powerful person. Power, money and prestige is the number one, is the model. And everybody is envious of this corruption. Everybody's envious of this corruption, and mostly North Americans are, because this is their ideal, power, money, and prestige. You see not only in America, but let's quote a little bit about Christianity even, because the church and some popes, they said "they advised their bishops and their cardinals not to do politics.
So when you have to speak about unfairness, injustice, exploitation done, performed by politics and economics, this is politics. This is not our business.
Richard: You can't talk about this.
Cláudia: So you cannot talk about those serious, severe
Richard: sins." And this is a doctrine inside the church, a sort of an idea inside the church that the priest should not?
I
Cláudia: don't understand how much this is like, well, you have encyclicals speaking about this, those letters and those treaties, and you have many popes behaving like this. And we know that it's totally against Jesus Christ, because Jesus was a politician in this sense, because he was always speaking against the exploitation the powerful did against the people.
Richard: And the hypocrisy.
Cláudia: The hypocrisy and the taxes they charged and the unfairness, the burden that they put on the shoulders of other people.
And so he was always saying, if you allow your neighbor, a small one as he used to say, to be hungry, to feel cold, to go to prison, to be sick without being helped, This is what you're doing against me. He was always being very, very clear about this. So it's not something related to what those religious people do now about sex and sex and sex and sex.
It's the opposite of what Jesus said. He was mostly tolerant about sexual problems, not condoning, but being tolerant, not seeing this as the major sin. And it seems that Christians and Islamics and Jews and all the religions don't want to focus on this. Because you see, even in the Far East, they preserve those powerful tyrants and they worship them. And they are really, really perverse people.
"Yeah. And they worship them. So we worship Lucifer without acknowledging what we are doing. Some people even acknowledge they are conscious of their worshiping Lucifer. What they are not conscious of is that this is not really bringing any advantage to anyone."
Richard: But you're touching me a lot here with your description of Jesus' idea. You know, "if you're not helping, if you're letting people go to prison, if you're letting people be hungry, if you're contributing to that, this is the real sin in his kingdom."
And that touches me deeply because I feel that too, Cláudia. I feel that there's a real lack of Christianity, Christian values in this area of looking after each other in the world. We are really shirking our duty here. And we need to try to deal with that issue. Why are we so unwilling to get off our ass and help the people?
Cláudia: Because we did not understand, Richard, that our true essence and our true will is connected to these good actions and the good behavior and virtues.
We are upside down. We think we have this drive to inverted desires and actions. We have this idea that the advantage is on the other side. It's not with God. It's on the other side. And that being with God needs sacrifice.
Richard: It's
Cláudia: boring somehow. And boring, like being deprived from happiness and satisfaction and freedom. We are really upside down.
And we do not understand this. And
Richard: I said in my class recently, I was talking about this, that "we have a society that's already formed, Cláudia, because we have these beautiful doctrines of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. We have the constitutions of all the democracies of the world. We have the beautiful values from the French Revolution. We already know what we should
Cláudia: do.
So we have a conscious, rational life, and we have a subconscious, emotional life. And one is against the other and if we do not acknowledge this inversion in the emotional level we will do anything or everything against our reason. And we live in an irrational society, irrational world, which is destroying itself and walking through this total annihilation. Because we are inverted and we are going to the wrong way, to the wrong direction."
We
Richard: are inverted. Now truer words have never been spoken, have they? But we've never understood this before. The science of nerverto Keppe Analytical Trilogy allows us to understand that through the study of psychosociopathology, to understand that much better. And this is what we discuss every week of course on our radio program, as you know by now, at least I hope you do.
The program is called Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I hope it's causing you to think a little deeper about these things that are going on in our world that we need to do something about. It takes people like you and me and us to collectively do something to make a change. It's not going to change by itself, of course. So we are back again next week on the Positive World Radio Network.
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Pleasure to have you with us.
Joneshealing at gmail.com, my email address. Love to hear from you. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is back next week on the Positive World Radio Network. Talk to you then.
