Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Line up all the economists in the world, it is said, and they'll all point in different directions. And while it's true that economists do view society through the particular lens of their political or sociological ideology, there are some general economics principles that seem widely held in the field. One is that you can point to economic performance as an indicator of a household's or a company's or even a nation's success, and therefore the need to look after the drivers of this all-important economy, banks and corporations and GDP and all that.
Economic performance is even one of the most important indices when considering happiness and quality of life on those top 10 countries to live in lists that pop up once or twice a year. But yet there's something obviously missing in a person who gives attention only to the financial side of things in life, something out of kilter and off balance, even psychotic, in running the world based on what the bean counters have to say.
We'll explore what's wrong with this view today, how money stops growth today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
Do check in with me, would you?
Even if it's just to say hi, so I know you're still listening. I've received a lot of emails over the years, but I know people change email addresses frequently, and if that's your case, please drop me a quick note again so I have your new address. It seems important somehow for us to stay in touch this way. Our topic today, how money stops growth, is much like many of our programs on the Stop Radio Network in that it takes a more expansive view of the issue.
I really don't want to get into the polarized debate that often marks considerations of economics, the right-wing versus left-wing dogmatic discussion where the right labels economic reformers as pinko-liberals, and the left paints fiscal conservatives as heartless Neanderthals. Surely there is some meeting ground, and I think Norberto Keppe's scientific view offers us some common basis from which to consider this. Time and again I've seen that happen, actually, where the universal perspective brought by Keppe's discovery of inversion, finds a common ground between two opposing points of view by pointing out what's missing in both.
Because, you know, entering into a financial discussion and looking at the merits and pitfalls of each polarized view misses an essential point. The solution is not in one or the other, or in blending aspects of each together into a sort of financial cocktail, but of transcending the issue and shining a metaphysical light on the thing. Just imagine, and this happens a lot, a debate over the pros and cons of any issue. Let's say an armed conflict, for example, and how that immediately locks you into a consideration of best and worst case scenarios.
Or minimizing damages. Or thinking about how to spin the facts to get the most traction.
You stay at the level of choosing the best option out of those two, yes or no, based on the percentage of people who agree with each point, at least in a democracy, theoretically. A dictatorial regime imposes its will in a more obvious way. But the metaphysical perspective, the more abstract view that considers a universal command that we shall not kill, What happens to that wisdom in a polarized, so-called real-world debate?
Because this universal savvy is one of the first things we chuck out because we consider it utopian idealism whenever any consideration of the real-world pragmatism gets trumpeted. And in this way, we close ourselves to the greater truth that could guide our debate. That greater perspective that Jesus and Gandhi and King reminded us of, and that still resonates in our hearts whenever we take a breath and calm the reactionary knee-jerk responses we have to seek vengeance or exert power.
Why don't we trust this deeper wisdom, I often wonder? After all, it is this profound sense we must call on if we're going to solve the serious problems confronting us here early in the 21st century. So it is from this universal Kepien perspective that we will try to consider our issue of today. When we come back on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, let's have a look at how money stops growth and how we might begin to solve that problem.
That's coming up next on the Stop
Radio Network. Home to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, healing through consciousness, analyzing the one percent, and the conscious company.
Since the
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: beginning of all civilizations they had always manifested an enormous interest and knowledge about the spiritual life and spiritual beings.
Richard: It's a world of ancient wisdom that modern science has
Cláudia: eliminated.
The arising philosophy of positivism prefer to base science on material happenings, so only what you can see and touch and feel is real.
Richard: Now spirituality is being put back into science. Imagine
Cláudia: what would happen if people start considering this as a real thing, not only as a religious thing but also a real scientific thing. Imagine what would happen. Norberto
We are
part of an exciting initiative here in Brazil that includes leading-edge psychological sessions available by phone, Skype, worldwide. Top level translation services in a vast number of languages. Online and classroom language classes using a proven psycholinguistic method and highly trained teachers that help you learn faster and easier. And an innovative social project that offers multiple opportunities for you to participate and learn so you can apply these initiatives in your communities worldwide.
Now back to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network.
Richard: You are listening as always to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on our beautiful Stop Radio Network. I'm Richard Jones and last week was an interesting program. Last week because Cláudia and I sat down.
Really with no idea of what we were going to talk about. And out of it came this beautiful program that I'm calling the Final Conflict.
I'm trying to get exactly the word.
Richard: Alzheimer's is setting in early. The Final Conflict. Because we talked about the sightings of the Holy Mother, the significance of this. We talked about the movie, The Final Conflict with Damien, remember?
And out of that, I was thinking a lot about the state of the world as a result. Because you said at the very beginning, you said, Richard, I don't know what to think anymore. I don't know how to analyze or to see things. And that really struck me because I think many people feel that way. And they don't have your wisdom or your experience with Dr.
Keppe's work. They don't have your vision. So for you to say that, I think, was very telling. So in sort of preparing today, I was reading a book.
Cláudia: But before we start, remember what showed
Richard: up in the Internet for us. Your ex-minister of defense, Paul Hellyer.
Cláudia: Yeah, the subject he
Richard: brought up. I think I mentioned it. He talked to a citizens' council in Washington very recently, developed by citizens in
Cláudia: the senate.
No
Richard: it's outside the auspices of the government. It's like citizens calling for full disclosure and they're putting senators or congressmen on a panel to listen to people speak. It's fantastic. And Paul Hellyer, our Canadian, former Canadian defense minister from the 60s, spoke. And I have known about him and then forgotten about him. So it was interesting that he came up again. And he was speaking a lot about extraterrestrial influence here on Earth and also about the need for economic reform.
He's really big on this, that we need to reform our economic system, that being controlled by the bankers is a disaster for the human being. And this is something Dr. Keppe has talked about a lot in his book, Liberation of the People, and particularly work in capital, which I think we'll refer to today. But before I just came across something, Cláudia, because, you know, I've looked for many years to try to understand how the, I don't want to say how the powerful, how the established way of thinking, Help people think.
And I was reading a book by... Michael Sandel, who's a University of Harvard professor of government and philosophy, I think. He's written a book called What Money Can't Buy. And in that, he outlines two of the premier proposals from market economics. They're not talked about like they talk about Adam Smith, but they're sort of generally believed by economists. And the first one is, that commercializing an activity doesn't change it.
In other words, if people are giving blood as a volunteer thing because the blood bank needs volunteers out of altruism to give their blood, market faith economists believe that if you pay people to do that, it doesn't change. It just offers another option inside the marketplace. They never defend this, by the way. They just talk about it as a given, that if you monetize something, commercialize something, it doesn't change it.
And you know why they say that? The principal reason, which is interesting for us in Analytical Trilogy, is that ethical behavior, love, virtue, altruism, are limited commodities. In other words, that you need to economize things so that when we need generosity or altruism, we will have enough to give. Now, you're shaking your head because it is hard to believe, but this is a fundamental belief in many market faith economists.
Obviously, not all economists, but you can see this proposed many, many times. And I thought about this in terms of the inversion in metaphysics that everything comes from nothing. This idea that the lesser creates the greater, and that we are limited beings living on a limited planet with a limited amount of energy and everything is materialized in this way. You
Cláudia: know something, what is most frequent in the minds of neurotic people that come to analysis, to come to treatment?
The sickest are those who think that if they are good, if they do good for others, if they do something for other people, they are like losing something, being taken advantage of, like giving away something that they will not recover.
They are being seen as stupid and being exploited. So if you do something good for others or for humanity without asking for money in return, normally people think this is exploitation and you're going to lose something very important in your life and you will not recover it.
Richard: Right. It's like I have to stop thinking about
Cláudia: others. You're becoming poor.
Richard: I've got to think about myself now.
I've got to look after myself, this idea.
Cláudia: Yeah. So this is the basis of all inversion in all areas. And something, Richard, that is totally mistaken is the idea that people work for money and not for other things. We have to work for money now. We are obliged to. We are forced to work for money because if you don't pay your bills, you will not survive.
So the system created a chain. They enchained everybody, by the way.
Richard: Yeah, we're like in a prison. We
Cláudia: are in a prison and money is being used for this purpose, to imprison people. So if you don't make money, so you live to make money and to pay your bills, at least regular people. Because the richest ones, they have money, they want money for money.
And just to have this pathological power in their minds, this idea that they have more than the others and they own humanity. So this is the pathological power of the economic powerful. Very sadistic, pseudo-anal kind of power they want. But you know something? When we went to New York, Dr. Keppe had some clients that went behind him. Like they went…
Richard: After him.
After him,
Cláudia: yeah. So they went to continue studying, to continue their analysis, so they had to have their jobs like as housekeepers.
Richard: You're talking about Brazilians then who left Brazil to follow
Cláudia: his work. Yes, exactly. Some
Richard: Europeans, too. So
Cláudia: they had to find out a way to survive. Of course. And there were engineers, lawyers, teachers. But there, they were nothing because their diplomas were not recognized.
So they had to do, even some of them, what is called dirty work. So this name, dirty work, is already expressing all this inversion, right? So immigrants do the dirty work. That's right. Why dirty? Handly work.
Richard: Work by hand?
Cláudia: Work by hand is called dirty work. Construction,
Richard: cleaning, yeah, called dirty, exactly. Laboring work.
Cláudia: Yeah. So they had to do this for a time, and they had to have their visas, working visas, and so forth.
And Dr. Keppe started to study better economy and how people felt. Even Americans that went to do analysis, many of them were employees, and they suffered from this exploitation. They had this idea in America that America was the land of freedom and the free enterprise, and everybody had the chance to be a millionaire. This was the American dream, but it became like a nightmare.
In the 80s, it was already a nightmare because nobody was able, almost nobody was able to become a millionaire. So they had always this in mind, and they had to look forward to become a millionaire, but not all of them were really interested in that. You know that, Richard? I do. Americans had to have this kind of philosophy, but many of them were not interested really in becoming a millionaire.
They were interested in living life, in developing. Many of them wanted to do something like for the community. Yeah,
Richard: meaningful in some
Cláudia: way. Meaningful, something better for their health. They were very much interested in health subjects at that time in New York City in the 80s. They were starting those expos, whole life expos and health expos and integral medicine and all this alternative
Richard: kind
Cláudia: of medicines and methods to heal yourself, this kind of self-help books and spiritual books.
So there was a wave of people who were raising in consciousness. So they were thinking, why should we keep destroying our health, our lives, just to become millionaires or trying to feed the pockets of the millionaires? So they started to wonder this. And Dr. Keppe was researching and researching in his clinic, and he realized the following, that money, the way it's been used, is a factor to hinder accomplishment and not to encourage.
Because if you have to have your life dedicated to pay your bills only, then you have no time to do and to use your creativity. And to produce what you could produce if money would be used for the good of humanity. So instead of thinking that people would only work if they would be paid, we should think that or we discover that human beings had a higher purpose and a higher reason to do what they do.
If they would have guaranteed house, food, the basics would be guaranteed, then they would have much more energy, creativity to become scientists, artists, entrepreneurs, to find out solutions for problems that so far have no solutions at all. So that's what he did to this group of people, organizing the Trilogical Cooperatives of Residences and Enterprises. And what happened was that feeling this support, this basic support of the group, each individual was able to really accomplish, become an entrepreneur in life.
And this was something, because the Trilogical Enterprises became a big center of services in Manhattan in a year, just a space of one year, one year and a half. Incredible. They started in the 23rd in a basement, small place, and one year after, or even less, six months after, they were in the whole floor in Broadway. But
Richard: what was the process of this?
Just the freeing up of not having to work only for money? Just this consciousness?
Cláudia: This was one of the things. The theme of these enterprises were, where the workers are the owners. So no capitalist or no… Capital invested was the law of making money. This was forbidden. And also they had a common like cooperative. So they had a fund and they would put aside some of the money they made to have this trilogical fund like a communitarian bank.
So they didn't have to go to ask for money in banks, like pay for interest. So they had this real cooperative kind of mentality. And one of the things also that, well, no exploitation, no speculation, ethical behavior, and the conscientization of errors every week. There was this group of conscientization of errors in the enterprises. And also this beautiful philosophy that is Trilogy, where we see that pure action in work, too, a good action, is equal happiness, health, development.
Richard: Essential part. We're back in just a moment. I'm Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Let's find out more about how this actually took place and how this redefines economics, disinverts economics. Finally, because this is one of the things that's really stopping us from developing. We're back in just a moment. I'm thinking of somebody else's head.
Cláudia: In the United States, there is a hidden government.
Richard: In 1985, Norberto Keppe published an explosive analysis of the pathology of power.
Cláudia: The New World Order that they are trying to implant goes totally against ethical principles.
Richard: 28 years later, Liberation of the People is still the most relevant book available that exposes our inverted socioeconomic structure and who's responsible for it.
Cláudia: They are like sharks and you are like fishes in an ocean.
Richard: The people's reaction to Keppe's book was enthusiastic. The powerful hated it.
Cláudia: They were able to do a master cover-up.
Richard: Norberto Keppe's book was buried and the warning went out to the media.
Cláudia: You are never, ever to mention the work of Norberto Keppe.
Richard: Now, Norberto Keppe's timely book is available again. For your free download of Norberto Keppe's Liberation of the People, go to liberationofthepeople.org.
Some governments already admit that life on Earth will be extinct in a few years. This is not a certainty. The human being does destroy himself and destroy the world in which he lives. This is called inversion, and so far, it is unconscious. But if we wake up now, there is still time to save life on Earth. Those who ignore this and do nothing to STOP the Destruction of the World are helping to destroy it.
The
program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network. Here's your host, Rich Jones, and special guest, Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco.
Richard: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones.
So that's where the idea comes from. And Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco is with me again. And as you were speaking about the birth of this new economy in New York, I always have a mixture of feelings when you talk about this. One, pride that I'm now involved in it. But I feel a little bit jealous, too, that I wasn't there because I think I would have liked to have been working, building things and working in the floor sanding company.
Cláudia: But you do this here. I do that here, sure. But as a teacher. Yeah,
Richard: but I would have liked to have been part of the sort of pioneering days, you know, always have this pioneering spirit. But, you know, when you were talking, I think it's difficult to see for many people this connection you make with looking after the basic necessities and how this frees the human being up to do better.
It
Cláudia: took a long time for me to understand this and to accept this idea, Richard, because I had this in mind. The system put this in my mind that people would not work if they don't have to pay for their bills and make money to pay for their bills, that this was a reason that kept them working. But this is not true, really.
It's interesting.
Richard: Yeah, because you said something in one of our programs a long time ago where you said, and it's stuck with me all these years. You said that real development comes from the essence of the human being. So the real desire to do good work is an essential element. It's not a monetary drive.
Cláudia: It's an essential drive. Essential drive, that's the word.
If you are not already destroyed by drugs, alcohol, or some kind of social corruption that already possessed you. So if you are in your natural state, then you will see this. Don't you remember when you were a child that children and adolescents love to do something? They love to do something, to make their own enterprises, small enterprises, selling… To sell lemonade on the
Richard: street.
Money, books, and this and that. I love that.
Cláudia: My God, children are so, like they have this initiative. Yes. And the drive. Sometimes small children, they say, let me help, let me help in the kitchen, let me help here, let me help there. But now they are being distracted. They are
Richard: being
Cláudia: diverted to PlayStations and games and all this, computer games and TV.
Richard: And they're even doing things like encouraging children to read by paying them. So they're corrupting this. No, I know. This natural desire is being totally corrupted,
Cláudia: thinking that every – because this is the economic view today, Cláudia. Everything
Richard: relates to financial incentives, everything. If you – even getting married, you get married for a financial benefit in some way, you know, everything's like this.
There's no
Cláudia: such thing as love for economy. We cannot give the impression that we are against capital and against money and being paid on the opposite. We understand that we deserve to be well paid for what we do.
Richard: And the more value our work has in terms of good for the community, the more we should be remunerated for that. Yeah. But this is beautiful.
Yeah. But Dr. Keppe says in his book, Work and Capital, I remember a couple of years ago I did kind of an analysis of this book at a meeting with Dr. Keppe where I tried to encapsulate this in about a two-hour meeting. It was almost impossible. It's an enormously big embracing book that covers many areas. Like Dr. Keppe wrote every idea he had at the time, he wrote in this book.
And he said that, really, only the true liberty to do good can increase the wealth of the human being, the true liberty to do good. Because when Dr. Keppe talks about wealth, he doesn't talk about financial wealth only. Of course, that's part of it, as you said, and a necessary part. But he's talking about social wealth, spiritual wealth.
Cláudia: Artistic wealth. Artistic, scientific wealth,
Richard: yes.
Cultural, technological, scientific.
Cláudia: Yeah. So what happened is that people do things only for money and this short-sighted view of economy. So if you have money, you build bridges, you build this, you improve the roads, you do whatever. But what you see presently is that they just do cars and always the same kind of car. They don't develop green economy because it's not profitable for a few.
And then you don't develop communication systems. It's always the same garbage. We see every time the same technology, the same things. We don't have anything new. So those dreams we had in the 50s about these small flying saucers.
Richard: The Jetsons. Yes, I remember well.
Cláudia: So having a car. Parked outside your balcony in your apartment building. Like the ETs do. So we would have a car, totally safe car that would never crash, never pollute.
It's so pleasant. And having our time should be divided in three stages. Yeah. Work. Yeah. Study. Yeah. And
Richard: leisure, traveling,
Cláudia: knowing things. So we don't do this presently. Here in São Paulo, it's like a hell. We have to work, work, work, work, work. It became a totally different kind of town here. My son, who's 42 now, he told me, mom, I feel like, I feel harmed innerly, deprived by what people, when I hear that people say São Paulo was not the way it is today, that São Paulo was such a pleasant town until the 70s, such a nice, pleasant city.
Richard Lloyd Jones.
Richard: Psycho-socio pathology. Trilogia Analitica.
Cláudia: Psycho-socio pathology. I tell you, the most pleasant of those all was São Paulo to live, but up to the 70s. Here we had a culture, we had some arts, because the arts came from Europe, and some from United States. We had good schools, we had immigrants that brought their culture here to live, to stay, they worked, they worked to build the country.
So we had an international city. We had international boroughs. But everything like, it was everything harmonic, natural, unified. No separation, no.
Richard: When people think, this is very interesting, Cláudia, because when people think about sort of the birth of music, they think of jazz and blues and these kinds of things coming from the United States, this melting pot. But here,
there's bossa nova and there's samba, these incredible Brazilian contributions to the world, to
Cláudia: world music.
Chorinho. And these are like major contributions to the cultural, musical culture of the planet. And we even have good classical composers like Nepomuceno, Vila Lobos, and some others. So we really had a very nice international life here in a pleasant town with an incredible mild kind of weather. There was a lot of forests around and houses had many gardens and it was really something, Richard.
Richard: Don't start crying, Cláudia.
Cláudia: But you know, now the city became like a monster of...
Richard: This is a city that kicks your ass, boy. This is a tough city to live in.
Cláudia: Because financial power, economic power came to São Paulo to exploit here. Yeah,
Richard: and so we have this mess that we have today because of this.
Cláudia: But nevertheless...
Richard: In our side, our little oasis, and when we come to the
Cláudia: studio...
Yeah, we have our
Richard: oasis, and Trilogy was born here. Yeah, and when you work in Trilogy, and I say this to all the people who say, but how do you survive São Paulo? I say, well, really, I don't see São Paulo.
Cláudia: I'm
Richard: in São Paulo, but I'm not in São Paulo. Our work is all-consuming, and I'm very grateful
Cláudia: for that. And you are in this oasis, as you said,
Richard: in your garden.
It's a literal
Cláudia: garden. Yes. It's a literal garden. Our school
Richard: has a patio with trees and flowers.
Cláudia: And where you live is also.
Richard: Yeah, and your clinic is a beautiful garden right in the courtyard in between the buildings. Anybody who comes here, I felt it right away when you go there, you feel the peace and beauty.
Cláudia: In the middle of this maelstrom that's São Paulo, there's this little oasis.
And I think
Richard: this is physical, but it's very spiritual. And
Cláudia: there is Cambuquira too. And
Richard: there's Cambuquira too. Which is the opposite of São Paulo. Yeah, completely.
Cláudia: Completely the opposite. So
Richard: people who
Cláudia: preserve or want to or deserve and desire and deserve nature,
Richard: man, Cabo Quira is. So what do we do here in all of this, Cláudia? Because I know there are people listening who are thinking, oh, you guys, that sounds so great.
I had an email from a young woman who only has access to the computer. I don't know if she's a young woman. I'm not even sure how old she is. But she only has access to the computer through her local library. And she was saying to me, oh, I'm so beat up here, wherever. I think it's in the United States. I'm so beat up here, and I don't know what to do.
And can you offer me a lifeline of some sort? You know, how can you help me? And I wrote back saying, well, I don't know how I can help you because I don't know your situation yet. But I just gave her a couple of them. We
Cláudia: need to know more data about those people. Yeah. And we are trying to organize a structure that would allow people to come and to stay for a while, for three months, for instance, learning Trilogy and participating in some kind of training.
So we are working hard to organize this because, you know, we work here in our group. We are teachers, and so we have all our time consumed in giving classes and attending clients. Clients. But I'm little by little preparing a group to stay in Cambuquita. And so those people who would like to come, they would stay a while for some days during the week working in Cambuquita and then coming in the weekend to São Paulo when they want to participate in the group therapies and doing something here.
So we have to organize a structure. We don't have funding from any institution from government. We would have even to ask for people to pay for the basics they have to pay here, you know, because we cannot support these people or provide work for them. And part of the process of... And even legally it's forbidden to do this. Of course, yeah. So I would have to do some
Richard: kind of training and
Cláudia: they should come and not to pay for irrational fees, but
Richard: reasonable And what I could say to you, if you are intrigued
Cláudia: by what we're talking about, start to read some of Dr.
Keppe's books, because it's very important that you understand what's behind this, because that will get you excited. And the TV programs.
Richard: And the radio programs. And TV,
Cláudia: radio, where he speaks in Portuguese, but it's dubbed. Into English. Yeah.
All of that's available on our radio station. We expose this all the time. Thanks, Cláudia. Let's see what we can do to build some of these bridges for people, because I think people would appreciate this very much.
Cláudia: It would be the dream of Christophus Columbus. You know what his dream was? He felt he was chosen by God to come to Americas and to, not to discover, but to re-encounter Eden. And like we lost paradise in a long time ago and we would have this new Jerusalem built in Eden in the Americas. So this concept of Americas being the land of the dreamers and the people who would accomplish, it's still in our minds.
So we have still a chance to shift things through consciousness. Keppe put here in his book, Work and Capital, all people should rejoice for we are entering the most marvelous period of human history. So after conscientizing the errors we have been doing, the inversions we have been doing, we are entering the most marvelous period of human history.
Richard: I think it's not often we look around us and think, yep, we're entering the most marvelous phase.
So this is encouraging but I feel compelled to stress that this isn't something that's going to happen all by itself. No, there's a lot of rolling up our sleeves and getting into the hard work of conscientizing our mistakes and disinverting our minds and emotions so we're on the right track. The science of Analytical Trilogy helps us profoundly with exactly that. That's our program for this week.
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, the program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, we're on the Stop Radio Network until next time.
