Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones and this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. In the light of the Paris attacks in November of 2015, it's difficult to know the best thing to do. The French government, seemingly wanting to show off those decisive decision-making muscles, so vaunted in our no-nonsense, zero-tolerance, let's-show-them-who's-boss business model of a society, wasted no time declaring war. Most of our Western world commiserated concernedly and gave their approval.
Donald Trump said the French need more guns. It's oh so easy to react in kind in this world. Far too simple to hit back when we've been violated, to see red and demand hard justice. That response we know well. From Travis Bickles, you talking to me? To Dirty Harry's go ahead make my day snarl. The world's full of these modern archetypes, guys who don't back down, men and women who make sure they get even.
But is this the best response if we want to resolve this? Will this brutality to match brutality move us forward? Seems we need another response. Towards a universal mentality, today, on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Our program for any tuning in for the first time, and with the Keppe motor literally exploding all over, thanks to the most energy-efficient motor and best innovative technology awards in Hong Kong recently, that will be many people.
Our program originates from São Paulo, Brazil, the home of Norberto Keppe's remarkable Science of Analytical Trilogy, which our show is totally based on. We publish individual shows on podcasts, downloadable through iTunes on your favorite podcatcher, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head the program name. We also stream programs through our very own Stop Radio Network, again available through iTunes News Talk radio stations, and streaming to your smartphone or tablet through the free TuneIn app.
Well, I don't want to appear too Pollyanna-ish here in my questioning of the French government response to the terrorism attacks recently in Paris. That is a very serious situation, of course, and I completely understand the gut-level response of most of us, I guess, to return fire in kind, an eye for an eye and all that. Perfectly understandable, that response. Many of us celebrate openly or even more secretly when heinous criminals get theirs at the hands of the movie hero.
But I'm not sure we feel good about ourselves afterwards. Now, Bertolt Keppe explains this phenomenon in his formidable work of psychosociopathology. He clarifies that the essence of life and subsequently of the human being, is goodness, truth, and beauty. Everything that exists is in itself, in its essential nature, good, true, and beautiful, in its original state, let's say. So in this view, anything evil or ugly or dishonest is the corruption or even destruction of that original essence.
No river is born polluted, after all, but deteriorates to that when we interfere. We feel right when everything in our bodies is working normally. Any physical breakdown feels wrong. Health is the balanced natural state, a mixture of health and sickness, and we don't feel 100%. Percent. Keppe science then requires a metaphysical disinversion. We are not evolving from the primal ooze, modifying from protoplasm to amoeba to fish to monkeys to cavemen.
Instead, we are corrupting the beautiful essence of things and distorting our natures to more savage manifestations. So an appeal to more reasoned responses to terrorism emerges from this view of life and creation. The higher ground that Dr. King walked when he urged his followers not to lose faith in their white brothers in the dark days after a vicious bomber killed four little girls in a church in Birmingham.
The high moral imperative that drove Gandhi in exhorting his followers to move beyond hate. Let's not condemn our white rulers for weaknesses we all have, he said. The high territory of Jesus, suggesting those without sin, throw the first stone. This is the land Norberto Keppe inhabits, the land of showing the mistakes, of conscientizing the distortions to our essential nature that the human being and our inverted society are conducting at the moment.
It's the universal mentality that is the subject of our program today. And we're back with Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco in just a moment, when Thinking with Somebody Else's Head returns on the Stop Radio Network.
Richard: In 2004, in a small countryside village in Brazil, the STOP the Destruction of the World Association initiated a remarkable project.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: Cambuquira is the place we choose to organize our living experiences in Analytical Trilogy.
Richard: The human being and society are dependent on one another. It does no good to try to correct the individual while allowing the social sphere to remain the same.
Cláudia: Like a new model of socio-economic, artistic, educational, spiritual
Richard: living.
Our Campo Quira project is a model of a society that nurtures the human spirit.
Cláudia: It's a small place. It's not far from São Paulo. We travel through very beautiful mountains. And there we have our hotel, the largest hotel in this town.
Richard: Welcome to the Grand Trilogy Hotel.
Cláudia: And when they go there, they have natural organic food, natural organic milk, natural organic cheese and products, very good meat.
But we also have possibilities for the vegetarians. And there we have our hotel, where we apply the concepts of this new world, this new society, a better life to live.
Richard: Classes, businesses, social projects, a better society brought to life.
Cláudia: We have conference rooms, we have a theater, we have musical presentations, we have artists from Brazil and from all over the world coming there.
Richard: Analytical Trilogy has proposals to transform all areas of human activity, leading to the society of the future.
Cláudia: There we will have people immersed, participating and living in a society where the pathology of power is controlled. Because the pathology of power is more than ever impeding people to survive.
Richard: Sociotherapy, using the world's most advanced science.
Cláudia: The solutions will never come from the powerful.
They're coming from the people, from those who are more capable, like artists, like scientists, like educators. So that's what we are doing here, creating mechanisms to live a happier life.
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones and welcome to the Stop Radio Network. We broadcast from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo, Brazil.
And our programs, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head and Healing Through Consciousness, offer the most relevant conversations around about the state of our world and what we can do to make it better.
The program
Richard: is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, streaming on the Stop Radio Network, available through iTunes radio stations or directly to your smartphone or tablet through the free TuneIn app.
Just install, search for Stop Radio Network and favorite us and we're streaming to you anytime you like. You know, with all the chaos in the world today, the fragmentation of culture against culture, religion against religion, and all the rest of that craziness and inhumanity, I kind of feel our program today will breathe some sanity into the proceedings. Because really it's spirituality we must turn to if we're to truly understand our situation, and particularly what's gone so wrong.
And Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco is really the perfect person to guide us on this journey. Cláudia? Hello, Richard. Hello, Cláudia. Did I talk too much in the
Cláudia: beginning? Hello, listeners, radio listeners. Yes. I was wondering while you were talking, and I was remembering some of the writings of Malachi Martin again, because I consider Malachi Martin as a very respectful theologian of the 21st.
Richard: Well, he was the 20th century. Yeah, but
Cláudia: he will probably be recognized in
Richard: the 21st century. Martin, the Irish priest who worked with three popes, at least, wrote a number of books, too, about religious themes.
Cláudia: Yeah. And his writings about the Vatican and the Church are very much like, alike Dr. Keppe's view of what happened to Christianity and to Catholic Church. But Keppe expands his view in a more scientific approach, and also he speaks about all organized religions, and not only Catholic Church.
But they coincide when they say that since the early Christian organized church, meaning since Constantino, the Rome emperor,
Richard: and
Cláudia: the Roman emperor, and Sylvester, Sylvester, the first pope that was engaged in this so-called political, social, economic, structured church, Catholic Church or the Church of Rome. Because Sylvester was the first pope that was not seen as an underground religious person or leader. Because so far, religion was persecuted.
Christianity was persecuted by the Roman Empire. Forgive
Richard: my ignorance, but what years are we talking now, Cláudia?
Cláudia: We are speaking about the 4th century.
Richard: 4th century,
Cláudia: so the 300... And such. St. Augustine? St.
Richard: Augustine was after
Cláudia: that. After that, okay. After that. So until this time when Constantine, the emperor, he had a very strong experience himself, spiritual experience, because he was in a battle, in a big war.
He was engaged in many wars because the Roman Empire was very powerful. The Roman Empire was almost all over the world, has its laws, its social, political, and economic organization all over Europe, Africa, and they were almost the owners of the world and the planet at the time. And Roman Empire had its own gods, they were pagan gods, there were pagan gods.
Richard: Dualistic view too, right?
Cláudia: Yeah, so they were very much developed in terms of philosophy. They had already the Istoic thinkers, they had all this Greek civilization behind them. So they were philosophically much better developed even than the Christians that had a more religious theological approach and not philosophical. But Constantine had a very, very strong experience. And he saw during a battle, during the night, one night, he saw in the sky a cross.
And then he heard a voice saying, Accept the cross, and through the cross, with the cross, you will be a winner. You will conquer the enemy. You will be victorious. You will be victorious. And so he was so much impressed by that. That would
Richard: impress you. I mean, imagine you're there in the middle of a battle, at night of a battle, and you see this cross in the sky.
Cláudia: This happened also with Paul, the apostle, when he was struck by a lightning of energy of God. And Jesus said, why do you persecute me? And then after that, he started to be an apostle and he gave his life, dedicated his life to spread the message. So this experience happens sometimes with chosen people. And Constantine, he adopted the cross and even physically adopted the cross as a symbol for his army, and he won the battle.
So he came back to Rome, totally shaken and impressed, looked for the pope at the time, it was not Sylvester, it was a pope before Sylvester. And he said, I'm humbling myself, and I want to become a Christian. I want to be baptized, but I'm a sinner. And he said, this is funny, because he said, I will have to wait until the end of my life, because if I repent now, and if I am baptized, I know I will sin again.
I will not be perfect. I
Richard: will not be able to promise that
Cláudia: I will not sin again. So I have to take a serious behavior, like a decision, but only be baptized in the end of my life. So I'll be more in accordance to my purpose. And this is something that I want you to write down, this idea that to be with God, one must not sin.
So please write down, and I want
Richard: to be back to this area. Good. Got it.
Cláudia: So that's what happened. And he said, from now on, you will have the whole empire, the roads, the army, the mayors, the governors, There's every single person, citizen, being Roman or under the power of Rome, will have to obey Christianity as the state religion. And the Pope will be almost above the emperor and will be ruling what will happen in the Roman Empire and Roman civilization.
So imagine, Jones, for a group of Christians that were underground, being all martyred because of their beliefs, and they could not own anything, they could not have any property, they had to be anonymous in society. So this was a
Richard: shift, enormous
Cláudia: shift,
Richard: huge shift. Because I've been to the catacombs in Rome where they lived there in these days before. Constantine, and boy, that was not a very nice...
Cláudia: They were arrested, tortured, assassinated... Tough life. And
Richard: buried under
Cláudia: horrible conditions, anonymous... Yeah, graves. Graves, etc., etc. So, after a time, the Pope, who was in charge when Constantine had his conversion, died peacefully. We had a serious ceremony of burial. For the first time, a pope was buried with honors from the state, and then Sylvester was appointed after him. So Sylvester was the first real, real pope that was chosen and picked up by a church that was a legal, official religion of the state.
But since then, the power of Christianity only grew more and more to a point where Rome was almost the owner of the world in terms of power. Yeah. They were more powerful than emperors, than kings. Emperors and kings had to bow themselves in front of the Pope and obey the Pope. So we cannot say that Christianity was not able to make it to bring the kingdom of Jesus, the divine kingdom, to the planet because they had no power to do that, because they had all the power and all the conditions to do that.
Richard: So what happened?
Cláudia: So what happened? And this is the crucial point. And here comes Keppe with his understanding about what happened. When Keppe speaks about power, political and social power, he's speaking also about exoteric ideas that services, ceremonies, official practices, external rights, formalities, laws. This would be just what was needed sacraments to go to the church attend the sacraments being like up to date with the the rules and the commandments of the church.
But no one ever really understood what jesus meant. So they had this huge powerful christian institution that was then gradually rotten from within, as even Malachi Martin said, that the church was rotten from within.
Richard: From a long time
Cláudia: ago. From a long time ago, centuries. So when Sylvester... His papacy. They were hoping to be able to finally prepare humanity for the second coming of Jesus.
But as the second coming of Jesus was something that was not well understood when it would happen and they had to wait and wait and they saw this as a physical manifestation of Jesus and not a spiritual manifestation of Jesus. So they had to organize themselves in a way that made them packed, politically speaking, with all the powerful people, political, economic, and social powerful people in the planet.
So since then, Vatican became a state, even later, a real true state. So they have all their political, temporal, powerful interests that have nothing to do with Jesus' teachings and on the opposite.
Richard: Let's take a break. It's like the difference between the paperwork, maybe part of the bureaucracy, and what it actually means to be Christian. So we're back with more when Thinking with Somebody Else's Head returns in just a moment on the Stop Radio Network.
I remember
Cláudia: the book Glorification that Dr. Keppe wrote. I was with him many of the nights or days where he got those inspirations from God, and it was a necessity for him to write what he received. So the book was totally written under inspiration.
But it's not only a theological book. It's mostly a scientific book. Very therapeutic book very beautiful by the way. And he used to wake up during the night two three in the morning and he said let's go to the top of the mountain and we were watching the sky in this dark night with no interference so you could transcend the sky and see heaven through it.
Oh my god you could adapt the writings that he did with the music of Beethoven and this would be a trilogy of his writings and the music would be heaven.
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones host of Thinking with Somebody Else's Head here on the Stop Radio Network. You know I receive emails all the time from people who resonate with our shows and the science behind them called The Science of Analytical Trilogy.
People like Trilogy's perspective on economics and health and energy, how Trilogy's psychological perspective goes to the root causes of human problems. But sometimes people ask me, but what can I do about all this? How can I help to contribute to the greater consciousness on the planet? I tell them the same thing. Our trilogical books and TV shows are a rich source of knowledge that you need if you want to be an effective change agent today.
There's dozens of our Stop TV programs there, too. So you can read, watch, pass the info on to your networks, and let's see if together we can restore human society to its correct state.
We are back
Richard: continuing our discussion about really the history of Christianity and what Norberto Keppe's work of Analytical Trilogy means when it talks about spirituality, trying to separate those two. So we've come to the place, Cláudia, in your very expansive discussions about the corruption within. And this started way, way, way, way, way back, almost at the beginning of the time of Christianity.
And you said just before the break that they didn't have an idea of what Jesus was talking about, actually. They had this idea of sacraments and confession and these kinds of religious ceremonies. But what Jesus was talking about was not that so much. I mean, obviously, those things have their value, have their place. But he was talking about something much more practical, maybe, day to day.
Cláudia: So, as I was saying, the interests of the religious leaders had then a commitment with diplomacy, the so-called diplomacy. They became more diplomatic than truthful, honest. They started to see their own economic and social interests and their pacts and their partnerships. And they even promoted war sometimes. They had their armies to defend their interests. And they were always involved in situations that they had to make choices.
That would inflict something against the teaching of Jesus. And they had to defend the institution of the church. And I don't mean that there were not real, real saints inside the church. We had many saints, really honest people. And it was because of those saints that the church was able to preserve for centuries a lot of power, centuries and centuries, a lot of power and respect because of those that were inside the institution, but they were honest and saint.
And many times the real saints were even persecuted by the institutional church. We had the very always fresh example of Joan of Arc.
Richard: Oh, Joan of Arc, yeah.
Cláudia: So she was put to burn in fire.
Richard: For political reasons, by the way. For political reasons.
Cláudia: And the Cardinal Cochon was behind her persecution.
Richard: And the British, the English wanted to
Cláudia: get control of England, of France.
You see this and you see many, many cases of geniuses and scientists and artists that were persecuted by the church. San Francisco just ceased. San Francis, he was thrown out of the Vatican by the Pope as being like a... Low
Richard: level? A bum. A low level. Get this bum
Cláudia: out of the Vatican. Yes, and that's what happened in the first place. And then he was so much loved by people that the Pope had to receive him later.
So we see this many times. We see, for instance, the apparitions of the Holy Mother being covered up sometimes by the Church. So it is something that we could not say and call this Christianity. So what we see is that Christianity, and we use this word Christianity because they call themselves Christians, but we can say that Christians really didn't understand, at least institutional religion, did not understand truly the message of Jesus.
And let's understand why. Jesus always spoke in esoteric terms, Ezo, inside, because exo
Richard: is outside. The system, the structure.
Cláudia: So, Ezo, inside, Jesus always spoke. And he spoke also about a kind of baptism, to be baptized in spirit and not only in water. Because so far, people were baptized by water, using water. And Jesus brought the baptism of the Spirit. And those who would not be born again in Spirit, they would not really be baptized.
So always Jesus was speaking about inner life, inner terms, saying that the true adorers of the Father, those who the Father would love the most, would be those who would not follow temples, but would be the followers in truth and in spirit. So he had always been an extremely initiated person in terms of giving value to the inner life of the person.
And we had not seen so far, Richard, any science, any school of psychology, any religion that would take or give so much importance to the inner life of the individual as Keppe does.
Richard: And how that inner life manifests in our external actions, right? Yes. This
Cláudia: is so important, isn't it? Yes, yes. Because it has manifestation. For instance, many clerics being victim of their own trap, having talked so much only about sex and sex and sex and sexual sins, and now having all these scandals of pedophilia.
So we see that the approach that religious people give, not only Christians, Richard, I'm now speaking about Jews, I'm speaking about Muslims, I'm speaking about Buddhists. Hindus, they give an enormous importance to external things. Miracles coming from outside. Contacts with gods and spiritual leaders from outside. Religious practices like ceremonials. Even meditation, they do, but not doing an inner examination of oneself, of this inner life.
So being inner oriented is not easy. No. Because if we look inside, as Jesus taught, if we bring light to our inner lives, then we will see not only good and beautiful things inside of us. We will see all that Jesus said. Behind the hypocritical, the mask, the hypocritical behavior, we have a lot of ill intentions. As he quoted, dishonesty, lying, slandering, envy, arrogance, hatred, injustice, egotism, narcissism, many, many, many sins in this area, spiritual
Richard: area.
Gluttony and greed.
Cláudia: Materialism. Yeah. So all this, but mostly the spiritual sins. Yes. The spiritual sins that are even more important and worse that Keppe puts all together in a package that he calls inversion. So we appreciate and we take a lot of pleasure from these demons that we bring inside. So demons are inside of us and we are many times acting like demons.
And this is something that is not easy to see and to admit.
Richard: This has helped me a lot, though, Cláudia, in Dr. Keppe's work to understand spirituality, because, you know, if we see it as this kind of institutional thing, it's more difficult to reach, actually, because the real idea of being good, of being honest, being ethical, this is something very practical. And, of course, then we need to see how we deviate from that.
This becomes a much more dynamic struggle to me somehow than this idea of what the church says we can do and can't do. It's more this idea then of how am I dynamically expressing what it means to be a Christian-type person? What am I doing and how am I not doing that? It becomes a very therapeutic process, and I find this very helpful somehow.
And
Cláudia: if you consider that all the world will have one day to be the followers of Jesus and his teachings, you will never be able to understand this through an institutional religion and people being baptized in one church. This seems to be impossible to happen. But if you have the true vision of Jesus in his teachings, which is an inner-oriented, spiritual-oriented vision, as Keppe puts in his science, it's absolutely possible.
Because any person who is honest and has a common sense will agree with what the trilogical science does. And Keppe understands Jesus in a more deep way through science. So there is no, and there is this spirit of Jesus in his science. So when the world understands the spirit of Jesus through Analytical Trilogy, through the scientific approach, and understand that Jesus is the most sensible being ever in the universe, They will not contradict his teachings because it's a common sense and all of them have this inside of themselves, printed.
Every human being has this understanding in their inner lives. Like, you must, if you want to be happy here now, love God above anything, which is goodness, beauty and truth and do to your fellow man what you would like to be done
Richard: to you. So it's such a simple rule that it's impossible for any person to contradict this law. Yeah, but it's so helpful, Cláudia, because you've just made God goodness, beauty and truth and not this figure in the sky.
It's like it's a way to honor in our own lives here now being good, being beautiful, giving value to that above all things.
Cláudia: And the pure act because God is pure act and God is a being, energetic being. He provides all the energy. He's modern. He's not only contemporary, but he's the owner of the past, the present, and the future. So this cosmic God and this cosmic Jesus Christ, it's a person that when people understand, then we will see all peoples from all religions, all sources, converting to Christianity, but not the old-fashioned Christianity, the misunderstanding of Christianity and Christ.
Richard: Yeah, see, this makes God and Jesus relevant somehow, not something from a thousand years ago, two thousand years ago, but a relevant experience now. Has Dr. Keppe's definition of God in this way been acceptable to the religious people? Yeah,
Cláudia: sure, because it's universal. It's universal. So and it's all christian it's jesus is speaking through science. So it's really beautiful to understand and many atheists many muslims many many jews as you know we have all of all religions in our trilogical society and people who
Richard: are not religious in the formal sense like myself
Cláudia: because the true spirituality the true christianity is spirit it's the inner life of the person.
So going back to that subject, which I mentioned in the beginning.
Richard: Yeah, one must not
Cláudia: sin to be with God. So the dilemma of Constantine. So this was something that was a mistake done by the religious, like the institutional religious people. They gave the idea that if you confessed, you would have to commit not to sin again. And honest people know they are imperfect.
We have the original sin we are upside down we have this in our psychogenetics we have this in our DNA. So we know we will not be able to avoid sin and if we say that we are being liars and hypocritical or crazy or crazy, dishonest and crazy and lunatic because the arrogance of seeing oneself as perfect is a form of mental sickness.
So an honest, a humble person seen by Jesus Christ when he spoke about this as closer to him was that one who saw himself as a sinner. So the message of Trilogical Science is one must see and admit our pathologies, our sins in order to be able to humble ourselves and do as much as possible about that. And God knows we are.
The problem, maybe, is that
Richard: we don't want to see that we're not perfect, right? Norberto Keppe deals with that trio of envy, censorship, and projection in his book Origin of Illness, reasoning that to the extent we have resistance to seeing our problems, that's the degree of projection out onto the external world we will manifest. I don't have a problem, but you sure do, is how that song goes.
But it's exactly this unwillingness to become aware of our problems that causes damage to us. And to our society because of this collective resistance. That's our program for this time. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is on the Stop Radio Network. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Bye-bye for now.
Since
Cláudia: the beginning of all civilizations, they had always manifested an enormous interest and knowledge about the spiritual life and spiritual beings.
Richard: It's a world of ancient wisdom that modern science has eliminated.
Cláudia: The arising philosophy of positivism preferred to base science on material happenings.
So, only what you can see and touch and feel is real.
Richard: Now, spirituality is being put back into science.
Cláudia: Imagine what would happen if people start considering this as a real thing. Not only as a religious thing, but also a real scientific thing. Imagine what would happen.
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and welcome to the Stop Radio Network.
We broadcast from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo, Brazil. And our programs, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head and Healing Through Consciousness, offer the most relevant conversations around about the state of our world and what we can do to make it better.
