Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones and welcome to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Nowadays, a conversation about spirits is looked upon in most of our Western world with a high degree of suspicion. 500 or so years of materialistic positivistic science has pretty much kicked the stuffing out of the philosophy that included spirituality in its precepts. But some pretty formidable literary figures and philosophers included the spirit world in their canon, including Shakespeare and Dickens.
Some great artists even considered the purpose of arts to be a transcendental one and included considerations about spirits and God in their everyday conversations. It's mostly we moderns who now, in our smug self-assuredness, poo-poo the idea of spiritual influence as being old-fashioned and passé and dismiss any such views as superstitious and childlike. But maybe those past geniuses had a better grasp on reality than we do.
Maybe there is something from the vast pre-modern worldview that bears a further look and could be brought back now to help us make sense of our complex and confusing modern world. The Science of Spirits, today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Our program is produced at the International Society of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo, Brazil. I try for once a week, but don't always make that.
You know, when I first started blogging and publishing this program about six years ago, a good friend warned me that a blog was a cruel mistress. And I've come to understand the truth of that in practice as I work to fit this show into our very busy schedule down here. Not that my work regimen is relevant. This is all a way to say that I feel a great responsibility to produce these radio programs, both because of the importance I see in the scientific philosophy they are based on from Norberto Keppe's School of Analytical Trilogy, and also because I have an email relationship with many of the listeners to our programs and our Stop Radio Network.
And please know that your letters are important and do help to inspire me to continue and to try to find new ways to bring this great science to you. I sincerely hope our Stop Radio Network and Thinking with Somebody Else's Head programs are making a difference to many who listen around the world.
You know, when I first moved to Brazil back in 2001, I can't say that I was very conversant with today's subject, the science of spirits. I was really a typical product of a traditional Canadian education and upbringing, which became more and more secular as I grew up, gradually squeezing out any consideration of the deeper currents of spirituality from my experience. And, of course, I played my own part by being almost totally oblivious to any possibility of spiritual influence or a worldview that was more linked to the 5,000-year Judeo-Christian tradition.
I'd become, I guess, a modern man to the point where I considered the play by the famous agnostic-turned-believer C.S. Lewis called The Screwtape Letters, a dramatic representation of a young man being tempted by demons, in which I had the lead role of Mike as the temptee in my high school play way back in 1972. I consider this to be allegorical rather than as having anything vital or relevant to say.
I consider all this much deeper and with much more solemnity today, after 11 years of study of Norberto Keppe's psychosociopathology, there is much in this perspective to be considered by open and ethical thinkers. C.S. Lewis himself is a fascinating case, a self-avowed agnostic in his early years at Cambridge, Lewis came to believe in many of the religious tenets, especially concerning Jesus and his claim to divinity, after rigorous intellectual pursuit.
And the moment that story becomes a possibility for you, the more the door is opened to the reality of spiritual influences as being more than horror flicks and nightmare stories. This is something for serious intellectual and psychological consideration that prolific incidences of serial killers or murderers who profess to hearing voices telling them to kill should be sufficient to give us pause. And the knee-jerk explanations of materialistic science to blame chemicals or distorted brain synapses should be considered with a bigger grain of salt as well.
Norberto Keppe's Psychological Science doesn't banish those experiences to the graveyard of modern rationalism, but opens the door to considering the massive influence of the spiritual world on our everyday lives. I know that this is difficult to accept for we in the so-called developed world who pride ourselves on our imagined rationality. After all, we no longer check under our beds at night for boogeymen or believe in tooth fairies.
And we can tend to look down on those who do believe in a more traditional belief structure of rebel angels and falls from paradise and other such universal stories that we dismiss in our supposed superiority and to our great detriment, I might add. As Keppe himself lays it out in his remarkable book, Universe of the Spirits, we are much more connected to the spiritual world than we think.
I remember a college roommate of mine many years ago, big strapping electrical engineering student, rational and practical to his core, being unable to sleep for a week after watching The Exorcist. Keppe's contention is that evil is inherent in civilization today, and the only way to diminish it and even beat it has not yet been used, and that is consciousness of it. The general idea we have is that evil should be banished.
It's kind of a good idea, of course, but difficult since it's so much a part of life. And since there's no way to fully neutralize it, we must become conscious of it if we don't want it to dominate our lives. This evil does, in secret, of course. As Freud showed us, most of what we are lies outside our awareness, and this spiritual world is part of what we're unaware of.
I agree totally with Keppe that we're extremely vulnerable to those influences inside and out that we don't want to become aware of. They control us from the shadows, and our only protection from them is the light of consciousness. It's with this intention to open the door to considering this possibility that drives our program today. One final thought. Relegating stories of exorcism and possession and spiritual voices to the land of make-believe also makes us vulnerable.
And the evil spirit's biggest accomplishment, between quotes, has been to make us believe that they don't exist. They do. And not just in horrifying outbreaks like holocausts and mass murders and Abu Ghraib prison. No, in our everyday life. And my fellow liberal thinkers must be especially careful. We have followed a vehement philosophy of modern rationalism that has excluded a consideration of divinity and universal ethics, and this exclusion is holding back the arrival of the truly just society we say we want.
I hope you, too, will be open to our program today. So stay tuned. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco joins me in a moment to explore the science of the spirits when Thinking with Somebody Else's Head returns. International Society
Susan Berkley: of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo, Brazil.
Richard: This is Richard Lloyd Jones.
The scientist whose work orients us all here on the Stop Radio Network is called Dr. Norberto Keppe and his science is called Analytical Trilogy. It's an analytical science that touches all areas of human endeavor. Keppe has new economic proposals that will lead us to a just society. Educational approaches that unblock our creativity so we learn more quickly. Psychosomatic health perspectives that clarify the root causes of our health problems and then treat them.
And a revolutionary technological philosophy that has led to the Keppe motor, an innovative magnetic motor that's up to 90% more efficient than traditional motors. It truly is the science for a new, just, and sustainable society. And we're going to share the magnitude of this science with the world at our World Conference on Analytical Trilogy coming up July 6th to 13th, 2013. I'd like to invite you right now to join us in beautiful Brazil.
There will be a great energetic wave you can join, July 6th to 13th, 2013.
Love to see you there. Join us.
Back in 1986, Norberto Keppe wrote a book that predicted the worldwide economic crisis we're facing today. Liberation of the People critiques the pathology of power that lies at the base of our inverted...
Social system and points the way out. This is essential reading for anyone wanting to find out how we got in such a mess and how we can get out. Liberation of the People.
Now back to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head with Richard lloyd Lloyd-Jones and Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco on the Stop Radio Network.
Richard: Welcome back to our program, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network. Richard Lloyd Jones, Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco is joining me again.
I was just telling you, I was listening to our radio. We have this great new radio station, or this new iPhone app. It's actually available on any kind of cell phone. You can download, I'm just going to look at it on my cell phone as I'm talking. It's called TuneIn. It's a free app. And on this app, you can access any radio station in the world that streams through the Internet.
That includes our radio program, which is very cool. And then with your little
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: USB outlet from your smartphone, you just plug that
Richard: into your car radio, and you have access to our radio station anywhere you're mobile. So I was listening with some friends of mine driving down from Cambuquita the other day, and I was listening to an old program we did. Susan Berkley was in the studio.
We were talking about the perfect society. And at the end of that, you talked about the spiritual influence in society and in the human being. So I thought, okay, let's go. Let's do this again. Let's sort of tackle that subject. Because, you know, most people, and I notice this sometimes if I publish something on my Facebook page related to spirituality or the influence, evil influences in our mind.
Some of the comments I get back from my friends in the lauded North America say, but come on, this is just a superstition. This is not something real. And you said in this program that we were listening to that being a psychoanalyst, a scientist, we deal with the raw material that the clients bring. The psychological disturbances etc. The nightmares. The sensation of spiritual influences disturbing them. The inner struggle they feel between good and evil. What is the nature of god.
And so your science would be to consider that as a real experience not necessarily a psychosis linked to something unreal. You
Cláudia: know Richard
Richard: i'm asking you
Cláudia: to start from a basic concept. Yeah the stupid human beings of this planet which
Richard: includes some of my friends on
Cláudia: facebook i think they have the idea by the way the aristotelian and cartesian and positivistic idea that only what you can see and touch and feel is real.
What you don't see with your five physical senses it's not real it's not measurable so you cannot prove its existence. So what you can't prove materially its existence does not exist. Yeah so this is so stupid because if you consider the amount of
energy that is beyond our perception, and that holds the universe together. So all this incredible, invisible energy that is holding millions and billions of stars and planets.
And even though you don't see it, it's there. And you may even check with some scientific statements that how How much of the universe is energy and how much is matter? It's incredible.
Richard: It's more than 90% is energy. Yeah, the minuscule part is matter.
Cláudia: Yeah. So how come you can, in this huge infinite universe, consider only what you can touch and it's physical, tangible, that it's real?
How come you can consider it like that?
Richard: Do you get a little frustrated having to explain this again?
Cláudia: No,
Richard: but it's okay. I know. It's okay because… Necessary, isn't it? We
need to improve the degree or the level of our humanity. You know, Richard, it's our role to do this. I was even reading some of Dr. Keppe's statements when he was talking to an audience in a UFO Congress.
Cláudia: And he was saying that one must here in this planet to improve, to help to improve the degree of consciousness of this planet. Otherwise, the nice guys or the good civilizations, more advanced ones in the space, they will not come here to do a cooperation, to do an exchange. Only those who are in the lowest level would come here and try to take profit from us.
Because otherwise, the most developed civilizations, they will not come here because we are lunatics. We are crazy. We attack. We are in such a degree of underdevelopment that is scary.
Richard: They're not going to come here to deal with
Cláudia: that. We need to raise the level of civilization here. We need to be more advanced. We need to help other people to increase their degree of consciousness.
So it's okay for me. It's okay. Love is this. Love is helping one's fellow man in what they need the most.
Richard: Fabulous. This is great. Because sometimes I worry, you know, my God, we're going over and over this territory. Maybe Cláudia is totally tired of this.
Cláudia: Not yet. Not yet.
Richard: Dr. Keppe says in his fabulous book, Universe of the Spirits, which has been translated into English now.
I think other languages, too. Certainly it's in the original Portuguese. He says, I would like to make it clear that even though this book is called The Universe of the Spirits, this is a scientific analysis of the subject I'm conducting. I show in this book how far experimentation can go in reaching what we call the spiritual life. And then he goes on to say that if we fell from our true existence because of the temptations of Lucifer, we mustn't forget that the demons have never stopped their infamous work of trying to destroy our lives.
So he doesn't consider this just a superstitious myth, which I think is exciting, original, innovative. I don't hear any scientists talking about this. This is a real experience, isn't it? We are bombarded constantly by spiritual influences, good and bad.
Cláudia: You brought something that is really, really amazing, Richard. You know why. Because since the beginning of all civilizations, you can track back all civilizations, all nations, present nations, all groups of people, all cultures.
They had always manifested an enormous interest and knowledge about the spiritual life and spiritual beings. So, now, you see, we have like a divided society. We have a society divided in many areas.
Richard: Compartmentalized.
Cláudia: Compartmentalized society. So, you see, we have the churches. Lutheran Church, Catholic Church, Islamic people, Jews, Spiritists, the Oriental philosophies, spiritual philosophies like Buddhism, Confucianism, all of them, with no exception, know that spirits are real.
Then you have the arts. You have literates, you have musicians, composers, you have movie makers,
Richard: you have painters,
Cláudia: many, many areas in the artistic world that include this notion and this reality of the spiritual world and spiritual beings, or being them good or evil, right? Then you have secret societies, like very well-known secret societies, like Illuminati, like masonry, like all of them know about the existence of spiritual beings.
They know the existence of God. They know about the existence of Lucifer. They know about the existence of spirits and souls. Then you have the healers. You have the spiritual healers and spiritual healings. You have some doctors that... Do this at the side of their work. But you can see this centers of healing. Like where the Holy Mother shows up and she appears and she gives her messages.
And many times she, like where she comes, a spring of water can heal people. Oh, this happened
Richard: in Lourdes. In many areas. In Lourdes, this was important.
Cláudia: In Lourdes. And then you have those other spiritual healers all around the world, shamans, many others. And they know the spirits are here. They know people can get sick because of their spiritual influence, evil influences.
And then you have all this spiritism down here in Brazil, Umbanda, Candomblé, Espiritismo, All of those kind of even, and even the powerful of the world. They are the Illuminati, they are the trilateral, the Bilderbergers, and the masonry. They all have cults. They have ceremonies, sacred so-called or spiritual ceremonies. They have.
Richard: Even we talked about this, the Olympic ceremonies, the closing ceremonies was
Cláudia: a giant.
A giant spiritual manifestation. Can it be good or evil? It was there. And you have all these bands, rock bands, and you have the fashion, all this with this demon's expressions in the drawings and the way you dress up and the way – it's fashion to dress up like
Richard: a demon. Yeah, not just the skull and crossbones, but all of them. They are inspired by demons.
So if they have this inspiration,
Cláudia: where do they take this inspiration from? They could say imagination, but how come imagination, imagination?
Richard: You wouldn't imagine something if it wasn't somewhat true, right?
Cláudia: Yes, of course. And then you have to take the imagination from somewhere. Yeah. So, we see this all around. You see this in the Bible. You see this in literature. You see this everywhere.
It's true. Right? And then when you come to the science that was supposed to directly deal with this subject, which is the psychoanalysis or psychology, the psychoanalytical or psychiatric scientists that are dealing with the inner life of men, that should be dealing with the inner life of men because most of them are dealing with cultural influences, physical diseases, neurological problems. Brain chemicals.
Brain chemicals, but they don't
Richard: touch the inner life of the individuals.
Cláudia: And then here we had Mr. Freud that made an enormous damage in what he did when he brought this idea that human beings are only like a bunch of cells
Richard: and neurons and
Cláudia: the manifestation of physical energy. And all the images, these imagery that we have in our minds are product or a byproduct of the matter.
And then you see Jung trying to bring something more spiritual to the scientific approach, but he was very quickly considered. And then it came Melanie Klein considering envy as coming from this Jewish tradition of Lucifer and envy being even a theological concept, the starting point of it. And then she was considered and in all the authors that try to deal with the so-called deliriums and hallucinations of human beings.
Every person, every scientist presently deal with this as a physical manifestation. Only that just a delirious hallucination and nothing real in relation to that. So you see, many, many areas in society, they take this as real. Churches, groups, secret societies, fashion, arts, etc., etc., etc. And then you come to the very science that should deal with this, and they deny. They totally
Richard: deny.
Very interesting, because the purpose of science would be to talk about the human experience. If this is a human experience, it should be part of science.
Cláudia: So you come to a logical conclusion. They're saying that the biggest trick of Lucifer and his followers is to be unknown for science.
Richard: To make us think that he doesn't exist.
Cláudia: Yeah, scientifically. So people pretend he's a metaphor.
He's just an imagination. So he can fully act in his fullest potential in humanity.
Richard: Amazing. Let's come back to the science of spirits. I think this is an amazing subject. We'll consider this more, how the spirits have an influence directly on human experience and how that's not being considered by science other than Norberto Keppe's science and Littoral Trilogy. We'll talk about that more when we come back on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network.
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. You know, there are many ways to dig deeper into the themes we discuss in our Stop Radio Network programs. There are books and TV and radio programs, conferences, teleclasses. But what about this one? Learning a language.
That's kind of wild, isn't it? Millennium Language School in São Paulo, where I teach, incidentally, offers eight language courses using Norberto Keppe's psycholinguistic method. Yeah, we use his vast literature and scientific findings to make it easier for anyone to learn a language. It'd be a great time to tackle Portuguese, actually, with Brazil quickly becoming a prime world destination. And you can learn online from wherever you are.
So drop us a line if you'd like to learn more.
We're teaching life in eight languages.
Norberto Keppe, and there are many exciting applications of his work occurring in Brazil and numerous other locations around the world.
This includes language classes, translation services, psychology sessions by phone or Skype, and the new energy solutions proposed by the Keppe Motor.
Now back to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the stop radio network
Richard: Richard Lloyd Jones Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the stop radio network the influence of spirits inside the human being.
Let me just give you some quick information about how to get in touch with us if this subject interests you more. Our websites have a lot of information about this kind of thing. Our healing through consciousness.com website has some direct texts from Dr. Keppe's book, The Universe of the Spirits, that you can brush up on and discover more. If you want to buy the book, that's available there too, and that would be highly recommended to you.
We stream through iTunes. We're available in a lot of different ways, including now to your smartphone. So you can check us out in all those ways.
Cláudia, let's come back. You painted with such a broad brush, and I think you laid out in a very logical way the ridiculousness of not considering this in our scientific life.
I think this is, for me, extremely clear now. So Dr. Keppe said in his book, Chapter One, Universe of the Spirits, demons have a direct influence in the human mind. So he said it's either God and his angels who act in the human mind or the evil spirits who do. So that made me think we are not independent thinkers then. No. This idea that we have independent thought, that we can even have free thought.
Cláudia: We can freely combine the thoughts, but we cannot create thoughts. The thoughts, all the thoughts are preexistent. Like Plato said, like Spinoza said, like some other idealists said and understood about the universals. Thomas Aquinas even spoke about universals, especially St. Augustine, many others. That all the concepts are pre-existing and we recognize them. So we do not create thoughts and concepts. We can combine
Richard: them in a good or in a bad way.
Even artists have talked about...
Cláudia: And we can deny them, but we grasp all this energetically and through resonance.
Richard: Even artists have talked about this, capturing the music.
Cláudia: Capturing all the concepts.
Richard: I think Michelangelo talked about freeing the being that was inside the rock you know, that
Cláudia: already existed. So this is a tangible, the way you're describing it in the first segment, it's a tangible thing that we can't ignore, that we are under the influence.
Influence of an enormous spiritual aspect, both of ourselves and of an external reality. I think we could compare. We are 90% spiritual. We should be. And we are under 90% the influence of spirits, good or bad. So if we are under the good influence, it's fine. It's okay. We become healthier. We accomplish better things. We have more success in life. But if we are under the influence of this evil guy, so what we get is destruction and diseases and suffering and pain and psychosis, panic attacks.
But, you know, Richard, you see, if we have a client, he comes and he believes, he has a belief. He goes to a church or he doesn't. But it could be either way. But when he comes, we see that they have the experience, tangible experience of spirits in their lives. But they can or cannot recognize, admit that this is coming from something real.
Because many kids, many children start suffering this kind of influence. They see demons. They talk to invisible friends, invisible for the others. And some people they see and they hear and these are not only a product of their brain, of their sick brain because this is present in thousands and millions of billions of beings that are normal beings and they see this.
And it seems that the psychotic ones, they are those who have no defenses. They don't have mechanisms of defense to defend themselves from this spiritual influence.
Richard: Well, they don't understand it. They think that they're being told by a dog to kill somebody. I mean, they don't have any protection from this because they don't understand it. Yeah. And our scientific world doesn't help
Cláudia: us.
It's a little complicated because, you know, the only scientist or the only author or man or researcher that did the union between psychopathology, the individual pathology, human, and the spiritual pathology was Dr. Keppe. So in order to be able to defend yourself from demons and from negative beings, it's absolutely essential you understand about your own psychopathology. And this is a big, enormous difference between exorcisms and the integral psychoanalysis, Dr.
Keppe's work. Yeah. Because you see...
Richard: Yeah, yeah. Hang on a second, Cláudia. We got a little interruption here. There's a little girl singing right outside our door. Just let me go and deal with that first. Hang on a second.
Cláudia: It looks like a spiritual influence, making the girl stay... Is it recording here? Look, how impressive.
Richard: Incredible. Let's just talk about this, Cláudia, because I just interrupted the show for a second there, because we had a young child, it's a holiday here in Brazil, with a young child singing right outside our studio door, and actually affecting the recording that we were doing.
Yeah, it
Cláudia: seems that some spirit brought her here to do this noise, because she had all the area
Richard: to play, And she
Cláudia: came exactly in front of our door to start singing.
Richard: Incredible. And we would see that as a coincidence in our scientific world. The scientific
Cláudia: world would never make an analysis that you've just made to say, look, a spirit brought her, inspired her.
Richard: Because many of our actions
Cláudia: are inspired by beings. Many, many, many. So going back to our subject, Dr. Keppe brought together all these areas. And even the exorcists, they say, before you perform an exorcism, you must do, like, drain away all the chances of being a psychological problem.
Richard: Yeah, you
Cláudia: must eliminate, right? Eliminate, yeah. All the opportunities. All these chances. So do tests and see really if there is not a psychological illness in there and not the demons.
Considering that spiritual influence is one thing, possession is one thing, obsession is one thing, and psychological illness is another thing. But this is not so. This is all together. And if you want to know how demons, how Lucifer, how Satan has power over you, you must know that he knows better than you do about your pathologies. What religious people call sins and weak points, the
Richard: weakness.
And maybe the movies about this have done a disservice in the sense that they portray it as one or two people having this problem, right? This person needs to be
Susan: exorcised. That person has
Cláudia: the problem. But this doesn't affect us normal people. But
Richard: it's not like that, is it?
Cláudia: Or you have to check if the person doesn't have multiple personality or schizophrenia or any other severe psychosis, but all psychosis have this influence behind it.
And as Dr. Keppe said, we cannot treat people just in one side, from one part, from one aspect, only the psychological aspect or only the spiritual aspect. They are always together.
Richard: And certainly not only the material aspect. Oh, even more. Even worse. Even worse. Oh, yeah. So this influence that happens on a day-to-day basis, how do you see this in your practice?
What do people bring? What's the raw material that they bring of these kinds of spiritual influences that we have day-to-day?
Cláudia: Every kind of vices, for instance, bad habits, psychological problems like isolation, low self-esteem or high self-esteem, megalomania, insecurity, depression, procrastination, physiological illnesses and problems, diseases. Diseases, insomnia, nightmares, panic attacks that can progress to some more severe kind of discontrol in your professional life.
Paranoia, feelings of being persecuted. What
Richard: happens?
Cláudia: Irritation. That's everybody.
Richard: Insomnia. Difficulties
Cláudia: in relating to people, intolerance, all problems, everything that bothers you in your life. Sometimes accidents, many, many times accidents, unnecessary surgeries and medical procedures that will harm you. My gosh. Not speaking about murder, not speaking about violence, not speaking about robbery
Richard: and all kinds
Cláudia: of social sicknesses, injustices, envy, veracity. You can't control yourself in eating problems, eating
Richard: bulimia, anorexia, these kinds of eating problems, drugs, alcohol, everything.
Excessive narcissism. Keppe said in his book, all diseases, uneasiness, anguish, and death itself constitute a gift from the demons to humanity. Because of that, we have urgently to return to the eternal good we had in the past. And in his book, he talks about this constantly in all of his books, but this one particularly. He says, look, I'm trying to make us conscious
Cláudia: that there's something happening here that we've not wanted to see.
And by not wanting to see, we make ourselves victims of it because it controls in secret, as you were talking about the secret societies. So it's fundamental to talk about this, to have some consciousness, so we avoid the influences. Imagine if people start considering this as a real thing, not only as a religious thing, but also a real scientific thing. Imagine what would happen.
Richard: How can we start to consider it then, Cláudia? What is the sort of the steps that we can take? Obviously, reading of these books, listening to our programs, this is vital, vital work. But I would think things like analysis, our conferences.
Cláudia: You know, Lucifer doesn't like our psychoanalysis because the person focuses inside of him his inner life. And he will find there very unpleasant influences, sometimes even beings being
Richard: alojados.
Installed
Cláudia: Installed inside Installed inside
Richard: Like
Cláudia: software, oh my God
Richard: It's a
Cláudia: scary thought. Yeah, but this is real. We have to see. Because humanity is in this bad shape. Such a horrific, infernal life. Social injustices. They come from this.
Richard: No, this we cannot deny.
Cláudia: So when Jesus said And all those spiritual illuminated people, when they said, Lucifer is the prince of this world, the director of this world, and he directs society, he was not saying that.
The planet, nature, humanity was under, like, it was not the product of Lucifer, but Lucifer has its grips on all humanity, all human beings.
Richard: That we are under the influence of this spiritual, negative spiritual influence, not by
Cláudia: nature. And if people understand this, they will change. They will not allow any more of these beings to control their lives, to suck their energy.
They are here to suck our energy, to take pleasure, to relieve their envy, because they are too envious of human beings. And they come inside every person and every couple and every group that is happy and getting along fine. They come to create disorder, chaos, fighting. You see the Middle East. Lucifer is there. It's there in their minds, in the minds of their leaders, in the mind of their people.
This was supposed to be the Holy Land, and it's the Infernal Land. So you see, there is the influence of this big fallen angel, very powerful, unfortunately, because we give power to him. Can
Richard: I tell you how exciting it is to do these recordings, Cláudia? Why? Because we have a chance to talk about these things that I know nobody is really talking about.
Cláudia: Nobody. We are the only ones.
Richard: Fantastic. Because
Cláudia: everybody has a way to reject. Religions say this is our subject, or even religious people now consider this as a metaphor. Even religious Catholics, religious Islamics, religious, all religions, they can consider this as, and they do consider this as a metaphor to protect those
Richard: evil spirits. And what we have to say is it's not a metaphor, it's a real experience.
Cláudia: You know, when we went to, in 1983, 1984, we were dedicating a big portion of our time and work to research, scientifically research on this spiritual world. So we had some research groups that went to research on hospitals, psychiatric hospitals, on prisons, on regular hospitals, on associations, on everyday life, on all kinds of endeavors that could be found, this evil influence.
Richard: All sorts of areas where this would be prevalent.
Cláudia: Even economics. Even economics. Politics, secret societies. And they did a beautiful work, these groups of research. And we presented the findings of these researches in one symposium in São Paulo in 1983 where we got around 800 people attending and the media gave a lot of support and published many articles about this. So at that time, we did like a breakthrough in this information, and we felt the enormous reaction against this coming from some powerful groups and institutions, like Catholic Church was one of them.
Richard: Didn't want you to enter into
Cláudia: this. Didn't want us to consider this scientifically. Incredible. And some other secret societies.
Richard: Well, this is obvious.
Cláudia: Media
Richard: too? In
Cláudia: the beginning, the media was very favorable, and then they stopped speaking about this. But when we went to New York City, we did another one.
Richard: 1984.
Cláudia: 1984.
Richard: I have the transcripts from this symposium on demonology, these two that you did.
Cláudia: And, you know, Dr. Keppe found that, unfortunately, The powers that be in the United States were very much working for this negative spiritual influence in beings. Consciously. He knew that, and we knew that. But we did it in a very scientific and psychopathology and sociopathology and analyzing why socially, because he's a social scientist as well. So, we analyzed the philosophical and social, real and psychological causes, educational causes for the decay of the American people in the United States.
Yeah. And the danger of following this Luciferian kind of mentality. And he did this in a very scientific way. And we had there all the main medias, TV, radio,
Richard: and… Journalism, newspaper.
Cláudia: Newspapers. And so all of them recorded the sessions, they wrote articles, but the directors said, no publication about this whatsoever. You cannot make any publications, any transmission, any exposure of these ideas.
So
Richard: they just kept quiet. They buried it.
Cláudia: They were then under the influence of these… Of the secret societies that they worship Lucifer. You know, they find Lucifer as the big friend. And they don't understand that Lucifer has no friends. He makes pacts with a few people, with a group of people. And he can even give good tips and benefit to those kind of psychopaths in power.
But eventually, eventually, Lucifer is incapable of being loyal, of having friends. He will never be a loyal friend. So these people, I regret for them. I have like a deep regret. I have a deep sorrow because I think, my God, what will be the future of those beings, of those human beings that are now in power, impeding humanity to develop its divine facet, its divine essence, the divine society.
So when we invite our people to come to our conference in July 2013, we put the name New Physics and the Divine Society because the true society is divine, has ever been divine, as we have ever been divine as beings. Society has always been divine, but it has been spoiled and destroyed, and we have to go back to rescue the true divine society.
I
Richard: hope our program is a step towards that. Yes. Perhaps you never thought of yourself as a rescuer of society. Most of the activists I know think in terms of building a better society or creating a more just and workable system. So perhaps our show gives you another perspective on that. I'm quite sure most of us don't think in terms of divine society either.
But Keppe's work embraces even that immense but ignored theological part of ourselves. Our program, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, is a production of the International Society of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo, Brazil. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones.
Talk to you next time on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
